Minute silence

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lbb
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Minute silence

Post by lbb » Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:33 pm

Do we have more of these nowadays than we used to? It certainly seems that way.

I remember when Scot Symon died in March 1985, there was a notice in the Rangers News but no minute silence. Six months later, every Scottish ground had one for Jock Stein but no postponements. Symon had been, in 1985, Rangers manager in fairly recent memory - the equivalent today would be if Graeme Souness passed away. Yet I don't recall any outcry over the lack of a tribute to Symon. The Stein tribute was correctly observed but equally, I recall the 'business' of Scottish football carried on pretty much as normal very quickly.

There was a minute silence at Scottish football grounds for Matt Busby in January 1994, despite him having no connection to Scottish football, but not for Billy Bremner, who also had no connection to Scottish football, in December 1997.

Davie Cooper died during an international break so no postponements took place other than two minute silences involving Rangers - one at Tannadice and one at Ibrox, for some reason. As Scotland were in Moscow, they didn't have a silence before the match but had one during a training session, IIRC. Did Hibs have one for Erich Schaedler? Did the rest of Scottish football? I can't remember.

Due to a quirk in circumstances, Celtic had THREE minute silences for Jim Baxter, one minute applause and two match postponements for Phil O'Donnell and none at all recently for their former director, James Farrell. Celtic could have a postponement because of Phil O'Donnell's passing but Dundee United couldn't.

Chelsea and Manchester United had one for two murdered schoolgirls in 2002.

It's difficult to construct a set of rules, I suppose. I find that we seem to be having more minute silences for more tenuous reasons. It might be my memory but I'm sure that Hillsborough was the first minute silence at a game I'd attended since that for Jock Stein. Now, we seem to have at least one or two a season. I didn't participate in a minute silence for the Ibrox Disaster until the 20th anniversary (where Rangers unveiled a commemorative plaque) and there was some tributes thereafter at different intervals until the 30th anniversary. Rangers then unveiled a commemorative statue and there's been a commemorative event each year since then. Is that the correct way or was the old way better? As I say, it's a very difficult one.

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Post by bobby s » Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:50 pm

Remember the controversy about minutes silences for the pope and the queen mother: I can't really remember what went where. 2005 Scottish Cup semis was it not?

We had a minutes silence at ER for Best, which turned into a minutes applause. I think we had silences for Gordon Smith and Bobby Johnstone but not for any other members of the hibs team of the 50s who died in the last decade. There was I think one for Joe Baker too. I don't remember there being one for Liam Sullivan.

Black armbands seem to be more common these days.

I'll check on the hibs ones: I think our next game after Schaedlers death was at Tynecastle and I don't remember there being a minutes silence.

Oh yes. The Mercer minutes applause one too at Tynecastle. Not the brightest idea anyone has ever had, asking for a minutes applause for someone who tried to shut down your football club.
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Post by the hibLOG » Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:33 pm

I seem to remember a minute's silence for Erich Schaedler:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/f.pettigre ... 040186.htm
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lbb
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Post by lbb » Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:57 pm

I'd forgotten about the stushie that erupted in both the silences for the Pope and the Queen Mother. A good number of Celtic fans disrupted the silence for the Queen Mother (which was in all grounds - checking my archives, I find an incredible 1920's-esque press release from the Scottish League stating that it would be left up to individual clubs to decide if they wanted to play on the day of her funeral) and a good number of Hearts fans disrupted the silence for the Pope. I'm sure the Celtic-Hearts semi-final in 2005 was the only Scottish match that had such a tribute. I don't remember people clawing their skin in disgust at Ibrox so I don't think it happened there. I'm pretty sure it was lobbying by either Celtic FC or the Celtic Supporters Association to the SFA that had the minute silence held at all.

Wasn't there one for Omagh - a terrorist atrocity in another country - at an Aberdeen-Celtic fixture in 1998? Again, a question of consistency - how many other atrocities were 'ignored'? A whole evening of Champions League matches were cancelled after the New York and Washington attacks in 2001 but Barcelona played Celtic on the day after the Madrid bombings.

Thank you, Fraser, for the feedback on Schaedler.

I think it's right for Hibs, or any club, to have such a tribute for one of their former players though you identify a clear problem of consistency in selecting which players receive such a tribute. I'm surprised Hibs didn't have one for Sullivan, being a young player on their books at the time.

I think it was right that we had the tribute for Phil O'Donnell - the circumstances of his death were shocking but thankfully rare. I do believe that Celtic should have had their postponement request rejected and it was right Dundee United played. I strongly objected to Barry Robson complaining in the newspapers about playing as if his grief was on a par with that of the O'Donnell family. It was very uncomfortable reading.

The fact that these tributes are so inconsistently applied and the criteria so widely stretched is going to create further problems, or at least further demands for even more tributes, in the future.

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Post by Scottish » Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:04 pm

See the article Silence Isn't Golden and also Sound of Silence for previous observations on this.

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Post by lbb » Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:58 pm

scottish wrote:See the article Silence Isn't Golden and also Sound of Silence for previous observations on this.
A couple of interesting articles. I disagree with the criteria that you propose. There's no definition of what a 'terrible event' is and I've a feeling this will usually involve things that happen here or in the US but not in, say, Botswana or Armenia. It would be media-driven and therefore too open to interpretation. Football tragedies, I would agree with but 'football legends' is, again, too open to interpretation.

It would be much easier if the game restricted itself to football tragedies which appeal to the 'family' of the sport and individual clubs restricted themselves to those players or managers that were associated with them.

I know the example that you make of the Paisley cinema fire and these are, again, thankfully rare and individual clubs can make that decision. Again, though, I don't think this should be universal, e.g. the tsunami.

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Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:08 pm

I find all of this "minute`s silence", "Minute`s applause" nonsense quite distasteful and maudlin not to say an indulgence in emotional blackmail by some self appointed Griefmeisters. "Look just how upset I am & if you don`t show the same ostentatious grief, then you`re a hardhearted sod. You in seat 7 row 19 we`ve got your number" I`m quite able to mourn who I want to when I want to without being instructed to by some emotional cripple.

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Post by nightfire » Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:11 pm

There was a minutes silence the for the Ibrox Disaster at Celtic Park the week after the tragedy.

I was in the Jungle that day and all that could be heard was the rain battering on the roof. I presume a minutes silence was observed at all Scottish games that week (Rangers did not play until a week later).

As far as disruptions are concerned which have occurred for the Pope (Hearts fans), Queen Mother (Celtic fans), Matt Busby (Rangers fans) and even the Madrid bombing (Barca fans), they will always occur as it only takes one to set off more etc etc. The minutes applause will mask this but that doesn't mean everyone is a willing participant.

In response to the original point, there are more these days in what is a more pc world

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Post by StAndrewsHMFC » Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:10 pm

lbb wrote:I'd forgotten about the stushie that erupted in both the silences for the Pope and the Queen Mother. A good number of Celtic fans disrupted the silence for the Queen Mother (which was in all grounds - checking my archives, I find an incredible 1920's-esque press release from the Scottish League stating that it would be left up to individual clubs to decide if they wanted to play on the day of her funeral) and a good number of Hearts fans disrupted the silence for the Pope. I'm sure the Celtic-Hearts semi-final in 2005 was the only Scottish match that had such a tribute. I don't remember people clawing their skin in disgust at Ibrox so I don't think it happened there. I'm pretty sure it was lobbying by either Celtic FC or the Celtic Supporters Association to the SFA that had the minute silence held at all.
I remember the pope incident very clearly, it was only the Hearts v Celtic game that had the minutes silence, I'm fairly sure it Celtic themselves on behalf of their fans that requested it.

I think in some cases there is good reason for a moment of reflection as in the case of Phil O'Donnell (although why postpone Celtics game and not Dundee United's- who's players saw O'Donnell die- but thats a seperate issue). However perhaps we are reaching saturation point for these moments of reflection these days.

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Post by bobby s » Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:45 pm

There was a minutes silence for the pope at the Hibs v Dundee United semi too. Some Hibs and Dundee United fans chose to disrespect it. A pity, because the pope never did me any harm and I remember we got to go out and wave at his helicopter as it passed overhead going to Rosewell.
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Post by the hibLOG » Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:13 pm

bobby s wrote:There was a minutes silence for the pope at the Hibs v Dundee United semi too. Some Hibs and Dundee United fans chose to disrespect it. A pity, because the pope never did me any harm and I remember we got to go out and wave at his helicopter as it passed overhead going to Rosewell.
In fairness I think there were a lot of fans still coming in to the ground, singing in the concourse at the top of the stands, not realising the minute's silence was going on.
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Post by Skyline Drifter » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:51 pm

Personally I much prefer a minute's silence. It's solemn, sombre and fitting. A minute's applause is something I find personally quite uncomfortable. It's a shame when something that should be poignent (sp?) turns into a chanting and cheering session. I accept the point of them and the reasoning behind them but I think they should be reserved for obvious venues and fixtures for spoiling. I firmly don't believe anyone in Scotland would have consciously spoiled a minute's silence for Phil O'Donnell for instance and for me it was a shame we didn't get one.

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Post by StAndrewsHMFC » Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:27 pm

bobby s wrote:There was a minutes silence for the pope at the Hibs v Dundee United semi too. Some Hibs and Dundee United fans chose to disrespect it. A pity, because the pope never did me any harm and I remember we got to go out and wave at his helicopter as it passed overhead going to Rosewell.
Bizaarely the former pope twice tried to foil my travel plans by parking himself between myself and train stations in Krakow then a year later in Bratislava.

Depsite this I didn't hold a grudge and I don't condone the actions of those who set out to disrupt his minutes silence. However I would question why a minutes silence was called in the 1st place. I'm not aware of any link between the pope and scottish football, and for anybody who wished to mourn his passing I'm sure there where plenty of events organised throughout the country at places much more appropriate than before a football game in a country where religous intolerance has been linked to the sport. I have a similar thought about the queen mothers minutes silence

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Post by Burnie_man » Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:38 pm

bobby s wrote:Oh yes. The Mercer minutes applause one too at Tynecastle. Not the brightest idea anyone has ever had, asking for a minutes applause for someone who tried to shut down your football club.
I was there and was clapping heartily :lol:

As for silences, they should only ever be for football related events, nothing more.

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Post by Sat31March1928 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:45 pm

I was looking at Hearts vs Rangers Cup games from the 1930s and came across this one.

A minutes silence for the 'King of the Belgians'

Image
Jackson; James; Jackson; James; Jackson

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