BRITISH ARMY GAMES WITH SCOTTISH PLAYERS

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jimmythepost
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BRITISH ARMY GAMES WITH SCOTTISH PLAYERS

Post by jimmythepost » Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:43 pm

Anyone know where I can find records of Scottish Players who played for the British Army teams in the 1950's?

HibeeJibee
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Re: BRITISH ARMY GAMES WITH SCOTTISH PLAYERS

Post by HibeeJibee » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:10 pm

Bump.

Searched the forum for 'Army' and although this thread was never replied to, it's in the same vein as my question was going to be. Is there a resource anywhere - or a body or expert to be consulted - for details of the British Army team during the era of national service, and related representative outfits like the Combines Services, "Western Command", etc.?

I have Andy Mitchell's "Scotland International Programme Guide" which lists Scotland XI/Scotland U-23 fixtures... and Keith Warsop's "British & Irish Special & Intermediate Internationals", but it deliberately excludes such games outside of WWII. I'm interested in games by the other home nations (judging from programme websites - Northern Ireland especially played such games a lot during 1950s-1960s), but also v club sides, and instances of Scottish players being fielded by the British Army etc.

There also appear to have been instances of league selects playing such games, e.g. some Irish League v Western Command matches.

Any hints-n-tips much appreciated.

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Re: BRITISH ARMY GAMES WITH SCOTTISH PLAYERS

Post by prorege » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:10 pm

Any hints-n-tips much appreciated.
I'm not aware of any pre-existing collated source on these games. Perhaps you could provide a starter list of the games you have and see what others can add to it?

Some of the Breedon / Yore club somplete record books list all friendlies and some do not. However, none give opposition line ups.

For appearances, the programmes for these games would be your best source. They would list squad(die)s rather than team selections but it would be a good start, although many games against smaller clubs would not have had programmes issued. Some of them crop up on ebay comparatively cheaply.

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Re: BRITISH ARMY GAMES WITH SCOTTISH PLAYERS

Post by HibeeJibee » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:49 pm

Thanks. These are what I have hastily put together by way of Scottish clubs v Army teams, and other UK representative teams v Army teams, from 1946-47 to the 1970s...

Dunfermline
v Combined Services, 8th Apr 1960

Hearts
v Scottish Command, Sat 7th May 1949
v Combined Services, Wed 17th Apr 1957
v British Army, Mon 2nd Dec 1957
v British Army, Wed 23 Apr 1958
v British Army, Mon 31 Aug 1959
v British Army, Mon 7th Nov 1960
v British Army, Mon 13th Nov 1961

Hibernian
v Scottish Command, Mon 23rd Aug 1954
V British Army, Mon 10th Feb 1958
v British Army, Mon 24th Feb 1958 (previous re-arranged after postponement?)
v British Army, Mon 6th Oct 1958
v British Army, Mon 5th Oct 1959

Morton
v British Army (or Scottish Command?), Wed 1st Apr 1959

Rangers
v British Army, Wed 24th Feb 1954
v British Army, Tue 5th Oct 1954
v British Army, Wed 2nd Nov 1955
v British Army, Tue 18th Dec 1956
v British Army, Tue 16th Sep 1958
v British Army, Tue 20th Dec 1960


Scotland XI
v Combined Services, 28 May 1947 @ Hamburg
v British Army, 23 Feb 1949 @ Hearts
v British Army, 3 Mar 1952 @ Newcastle
v British Army, 2 May 1953 @ Hampden
v British Army, 18 Nov 1953 @ Everton
v British Army, 17 Jan 1955 @ Rangers (postponed?)
v British Army, 7 Dec 1955 @ Clyde
v British Army, 12 Nov 1958 @ Hearts

Scotland U-23
v British Army, 13 Feb 1961 @ Motherwell


England XI (FA XI)
v British Army, Wed 2nd Nov 1949 @ Charlton
v British Army, 1950-51 @ Arsenal?
v British Army, Wed 4th Nov 1953 @ Newcastle
v British Army, Wed 3rd Nov 1954 @ Sheffield Wed
v British Army, Wed 7th Nov 1956 @ Manchester City
v British Army, Wed 30th Oct 1957 @ Manchester Utd
v British Army, Wed 29th Oct 1958 @ Newcastle
v British Army, Wed 21st Oct 1959 @ Newcastle
v British Army, Wed 19th Noct 1960 @ Sheffield Wed


Ireland or Ireland XI (i.e. Irish FA)
v British Army, Wed 10th Sep 1952 @ Belfast
v British Army, Wed 21st Mar 1956 @ Preston
v British Army, Wed 24th Oct 1956 @ Belfast
v British Army, Wed 20 Nov 1957 @ Leeds
v British Army, Wed 11th Mar 1959 @ Belfast
v British Army, Wed 4th May 1960 @ Belfast (Peacock of Celtic, Lowry of Falkirk featured)

Irish League
v Western Command, Wed 16th Nov 1955 @ Belfast (Grovesnor)
v Western Command, Wed 21st Nov 1956 @ Belfast (Grovesnor)
Last edited by HibeeJibee on Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: BRITISH ARMY GAMES WITH SCOTTISH PLAYERS

Post by HibeeJibee » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:55 pm

Also Dunfermline v 'Army & Navy XI', 30 Nov 1957, although the fact it was a combined team of services and yet Dunfermline beat them 8-1, probably suggests a local XI...?

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Re: BRITISH ARMY GAMES WITH SCOTTISH PLAYERS

Post by gogsy1968 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:36 pm

Dundee United centenary history mentions the following
24.12.55 v Combined Services X1 L 3-4
18.10.58 v Scottish Command (Army) W 5-1
12.09.60 v Combined Services X1 W 5-0
02.10.61 v British Army W 3-1

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Re: BRITISH ARMY GAMES WITH SCOTTISH PLAYERS

Post by HibeeJibee » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:15 pm

Cheers. My guess would be that some clubs had occasional or even annual test matches against the British Army, particularly, until National Service ended in early 1960s... in a lot of cases, as you'll note, the games are roughly annual (often the same week) so that may help highlight where gaps exist.

Few more to add to earlier list... sourced from
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/

Ireland or Ireland XI (i.e. Irish FA)
v British Army, 13th Sep 1950 @ Belfast
v British Army, 12th Sep 1951 @ Belfast
--
v British Army, 5th May 1954 @ Belfast
--
v British Army, 13th March 1961 @ Liverpool


Irish League
v Western Command, 26th Mar 1951 @ Belfast
v Western Command, 14th Apr 1952 @ Belfast
v Western Command, 26th Nov 1953 @ Belfast (Grovesnor)
v Western Command, 10th Nov 1954 @ Belfast (Grovesnor)
--
v Western Command, 13th Nov 1957 @ Belfast


England XI (FA XI)
v RAF, ?? @ Bristol
v RAF, 29th Oct 1947 @ Arsenal
v RAF, 1948-49 @ ??
v RAF, 4th Oct 1961 @ Peterborough


East Fife
v Scottish Command, 17th Oct 1955
v British Army, 30th Jan 1956
(also played 'RAF Scotland' that season)
v Scottish Command, 8th Nov 1958
(beat 'RAF North East' a week before)
v Scottish Command, 20th Oct 1959


Aberdeen
v British Army, 15th Nov 1960
v British Army, 25th Sep 1961
Last edited by HibeeJibee on Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BRITISH ARMY GAMES WITH SCOTTISH PLAYERS

Post by HibeeJibee » Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:41 am

England XI (FA XI)
--
v RAF, Wed 25th Oct 1950 @ Fulham
v British Army, Wed 8th Nov 1950 @ Arsenal
--
v RAF, 1958 @ Bristol
v RAF, Fri 7th Oct 1959 @ ??
--
v British Army, Wed 1?th Oct 1961 @ Sunderland


Clearly stupid question in the modern era, but having identified ties involving most of the big clubs of the era (Hearts, Hibs, Rangers, Dundee Utd, Dunfermline, East Fife, Morton)... did Celtic ever play the British Army or similar after the war finished? Also does anyone with a relevant publication have details for other big clubs, for example: Kilmarnock, Dundee, Partick, Queen's Park, Clyde, Third Lanark, Motherwell?

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Re: BRITISH ARMY GAMES WITH SCOTTISH PLAYERS

Post by Gordon Baird » Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:49 am

On 8th April 1960 Dunfermline played a Combined Services XI on behalf of the World Refugee Fund. At kick-off the teams were:
Dunfermline: Herriot; Sweeney, Williamson; Mailer, Stevenson, Miller; Benvie, Kerray, Thomson, Wardhaugh, Melrose.
Combined Services: Grieve (Montrose & Army); Donnelly (Celtic & Army), Currie (Rangers & RAF); Kirkby (Royal Navy), Clunie (Aberdeen & RAF), Fraser (Dundee United & RAF); Goodwin (RAF), Herron (RAF), Murray (Rangers & RAF), Gourlay (Army), Fulton (Ayr United & RAF).

At half-time Dunfermline brought on Ferguson (left-back), Peebles (outside-right) and Duncan (outside-left) for Sweeney, Mailer and Thomson, which resulted in a number of positional changes.
The final score was 3-3 (h-t 1-0) and the scorers were Melrose, Duncan & Kerray for DAFC, and Murray, Fulton & Clunie (penalty) for the Services.

For 30th November 1957, I can only give the teams that were listed in the programme.
Dunfermline: Mackin; Sweeney, Duthie; Burns, Colville, Mailer; McKinlay, Newman, Dickson, Watson, Williams
Army & Navy Select: Ritchie (Rangers); Blythe (HMS Caledonia), Pettigrew (Queen's Park); Coates (HMS Adamant), McClelland (Hibs), McCorquodale (Rangers); Steele (St. Johnstone), Borthwick (Penicuik Juniors), Crawford (Hearts), Baird (Linlithgow Rose), Buck (RNAS Abbotsinch).

On 5th September 1956 Dunfermline defeated RAF (Scotland) 2-1 at East End Park. I only know that the scorers were Gerry McWilliam (2) for Dunfermline, and Charlie Dickson, funnily enough, for the RAF.

At Fir Park on 13th February 1961, Scotland Under 23's defeated the Army 3-2. Scorers for Scotland were Law (2) and St. John.
Scotland: Haffey (Celtic); Delaney (Motherwell), Sim (Aberdeen); McLintock (Leicester), McNeill (Celtic), Miller (Dunfermline); McLeod (Hibs), Hilley (Third Lanark), St. John (Motherwell), Law (Manchester City), Auld (Celtic).
The Army team included Yeats (Dundee United), Baxter (Rangers) & Young (Everton) - I didn't make a full note of it but it's probably elsewhere on this forum.

There were also a few inter-Service matches played at East End Park, such as RAF (Scotland) v Army (Scottish Command) on 2nd May 1956, and an RAF match between Transport Command and Coastal Command on 23rd October 1957.

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Re: BRITISH ARMY GAMES WITH SCOTTISH PLAYERS

Post by gogsy1968 » Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:52 pm

22nd Sep 1958 Aberdeen 1-2 British Army X1

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Re: BRITISH ARMY GAMES WITH SCOTTISH PLAYERS

Post by HibeeJibee » Thu Sep 08, 2011 1:03 pm

Excellent lads thanks. Going by this rather short thread on this very forum, Falkirk also played someone, and Dunfermline Reserves faced Scottish Command on 9th August 1958?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1823&p=10548&hilit= ... and#p10548

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Re: BRITISH ARMY GAMES WITH SCOTTISH PLAYERS

Post by Gordon Baird » Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:38 pm

I've not come across the 9.8.58 match before but I can certainly try to track down the details.

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Re: BRITISH ARMY GAMES WITH SCOTTISH PLAYERS

Post by HibeeJibee » Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:04 pm

Ta, thought it might interest you for your own records.

I see there were also inter-army internationals!! For example on Wed 19th Feb 1960 at Chelsea, British Army v French Army, with Parker & McIntosh of Falkirk featuring... on Wed 18th Mar 1959 again at Chelsea, British Army v Belgian Army, with Parker joined by his teammate Slater as well as Dave Wilson of Rangers... At Dulwich, 28th Apr 1956, it finished British Army 1-3 French Army with Duncan Edwards and Just Fontaine (x2) scoring!!

These games were taken pretty seriously, clearly?

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Re: BRITISH ARMY GAMES WITH SCOTTISH PLAYERS

Post by sureitsza » Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:06 pm

gogsy1968 wrote:22nd Sep 1958 Aberdeen 1-2 British Army X1
22nd Sep 1958
Pittodrie Stadium, Aberdeen
Aberdeen 1-2 British Army X1
Aberdeen: Morrison, Clydesdale, Hogg, Burns, Clunie, Logie, Ewen, Little, Davidson, Wishart, Mulhall
British Army X1: Slater (Falkirk), McKinney (Newcastle United), McTurk (St Mirren), Kennedy (Kilmarnock), Plenderleith (Hibernian), Nicol (Hibernian), Day (Middlesbrough), Dobling (Blackburn Rovers), Hitchens (Aston Villa), Quinn (Motherwell), Wilson (Rangers)
Referee: C.H.Dennis (Newcastle)
Aberdeen scorer: Wishart
British Army scorers: Hitchens, Wilson
Att: 8,000

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Re: BRITISH ARMY GAMES WITH SCOTTISH PLAYERS

Post by HibeeJibee » Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:20 pm

Falkirk details from:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1206&start=30
v 'Army & RAF XI', 23rd May 1951
v British Army, 28th Mar 1955
v 'United Services Scotland', 27th Feb 1956
v 'RAF (Scotland)', 5th Nov 1956
v British Army, 30th Oct 1957
v British Army, 29th Sep 1958

Some of those may be local selections as opposed to full-blown outfits.

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