1,000 missing Hearts fans?

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1,000 missing Hearts fans?

Post by Scottish » Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:39 pm

Another dodgy crowd figure. The gate at Rugby Park on Saturday was given as 5,901 with either 716 or 760 of those from Hearts. Killie club historian John Livingston was sat behind me and early on in the match he estimated the crowd to be between 6,500-6,800 with at least 1,500 Hearts fans present. I see The Scotsman match report said there were 1,700 Jambos. That would be consistent with the Chadwick Stand being slightly less than half-full - which looked the case to me.

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Post by StAndrewsHMFC » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:48 pm

They way Hearts dealt with this fixture was confusing to say the least, and no I'm not talking about 4 5 1. Away season ticket holders got their tickets through the post, the rest of us were told it would be pay at the gate.

A few days before the game a rumour started to spread it had been made all ticket and the club started selling them through the ticket office.

Finally it was announced that there would definately be cash turnstiles in operation on the day.

I don't know if maybe some of the guys that bought ahead haven't been included in the total or something like that

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Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:35 am

A Celtic friend of mine confirmed there couldn`t have been more than 30,000 @ Parkhead on Saturday. The "official" attendance was given as 58,624!

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Post by Scottish » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:13 am

Officially, the gate at Celtic Park was the largest of the season so far in the SPL. As for all-ticket at Rugby Park, such games are usually OF only and at the insistence of the police.

Hearts line-up and approach was strange indeed. It seemed to only ocur to them around the 89th minute that this was a game they needed to win.

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Post by StAndrewsHMFC » Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:20 pm

scottish wrote:Officially, the gate at Celtic Park was the largest of the season so far in the SPL.
Having watched the highlights, there are spaces in every section suggesting alot more than 2-3k empty seats
scottish wrote:As for all-ticket at Rugby Park, such games are usually OF only and at the insistence of the police.
Indeed but some bright spark at Hearts decided 3 years ago when all was going well to try and make every game all ticket for Hearts fans, which is not good for someone who doesn't know a month in advance whether they'll be free on a Saturday or not. This culminated in Killie on the last day of last season being all ticket for Hearts fans, but with a large number of fans deciding in the week before they wanted to go as Hearts still had an outside chance of europe the club had to change it to pay at the gate as our deadline had passed and tickets sent back to Killie etc. Quite what Killie must think of this is another matter
scottish wrote:Hearts line-up and approach was strange indeed. It seemed to only ocur to them around the 89th minute that this was a game they needed to win.
Don't get me started- the SPL is average at best right now and there is no way Hearts squad is in the poorer half of the league. However the TEAM that plays in our brilliant SYSTEM does not deserve to be in the top 6 by any stretch of the imagination, the fact we got so close just goes to show how poor the league is just now.

Incidently going to a fair number of lower league games I'd say the 1st division is better entertainment than the SPL in the last 2 years

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Post by lbb » Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:38 pm

StAndrewsHMFC wrote:Don't get me started- the SPL is average at best right now
Barry Robson as Player of the Year candidate on the back of half a season at Dundee United tells its own story. Sunday's ping-pong 3-3 draw at Tannadice being described as 'one of the games of the season' tells another.
StAndrewsHMFC wrote:and there is no way Hearts squad is in the poorer half of the league. However the TEAM that plays in our brilliant SYSTEM does not deserve to be in the top 6 by any stretch of the imagination, the fact we got so close just goes to show how poor the league is just now.
To be honest, the Hearts squad is deplorable - a collection of unpronounceable Lithuanians and sundry offcuts that they haven't been able to sell. Yet.

The standard of the Hearts squad from 2006 compared to present must alarm even the dimmest of Jambos.

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Post by StAndrewsHMFC » Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:43 pm

lbb wrote:To be honest, the Hearts squad is deplorable - a collection of unpronounceable Lithuanians and sundry offcuts that they haven't been able to sell. Yet.
I didn't say it wasn't deplorable, I just said it wasn't worse than half the league, which is an entirely different matter.
lbb wrote:The standard of the Hearts squad from 2006 compared to present must alarm even the dimmest of Jambos.
Flattery won't get you anywhere!

The squad is poorer yes, but what alarms this dim jambo is the fact that we underperform due to using a system that most of the players don't fit into, and appear not to understand what their role is on the park. On top of that the majority of the squad appear to be unfit with the rest injured. Until we sort it out of the pitch we could swap squads with Barcelona and still dissapoint.

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Post by Scottish » Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:10 pm

StAndrewsHMFC wrote:Don't get me started- the SPL is average at best right now
If it's not the worst since its inception ten years ago then it can't be pretty far off. I don't just mean at the top either. Looking at the Killie squad for the first SPL season in 1998-99 I don't see too many players nowadays of the calibre of Gordon Marshall, Gus MacPherson, Gary Holt, Ian Durrant, Ally Mitchell, Ally McCoist, Paul Wright and Ray Montgomerie. I think the same goes for most if not all clubs.

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Post by lbb » Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:18 am

StAndrewsHMFC wrote: I didn't say it wasn't deplorable, I just said it wasn't worse than half the league, which is an entirely different matter.
I wouldn't even be too sure on that score. In saying that, Motherwell have managed to propel themselves up the league thanks to a change in manager so who knows where Hearts would end up if they ever got their manager sorted.

There might not be much in it but I don't think the Hearts squad is anything special and it's desperate to suggest they're unfairly positioned in some way.
StAndrewsHMFC wrote:Flattery won't get you anywhere!
Wasn't aimed at you. More to say that even dim Jambos - not the kind of Hearts fans who occupy this forum of course - must have noticed how bad things have got on the park.
StAndrewsHMFC wrote:The squad is poorer yes, but what alarms this dim jambo is the fact that we underperform due to using a system that most of the players don't fit into, and appear not to understand what their role is on the park.
I don't pretend to be some great tactician so you may well be right. However, in my view, another factor is the sheer size of the squad, the obvious language problems this presents, the constant uncertainty of the management's position and the constant uncertainty over the future of certain players. You're not going to have 11 Jambos on the park anymore but having a collection of oddballs in the dressing room who have no more loyalty to Heart of Midlothian than they do their local Chinese takeaway can't be a healthy situation. All of this coming from the top, it should be said.

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Post by Scottish » Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:42 am

lbb wrote:You're not going to have 11 Jambos on the park anymore but having a collection of oddballs in the dressing room who have no more loyalty to Heart of Midlothian than they do their local Chinese takeaway can't be a healthy situation. All of this coming from the top, it should be said.
It'll be fourteen years next Wednesday since Rangers last fielded an all-Scottish side (and that's counting McCall & Gough). Celtic have a similar anniversary in November.

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Post by lbb » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:07 pm

scottish wrote: It'll be fourteen years next Wednesday since Rangers last fielded an all-Scottish side (and that's counting McCall & Gough). Celtic have a similar anniversary in November.
That's probably true. However, the issue is that Hearts are full of foreign players who couldn't give two hoots about them and the nature of the ownership of these players is in doubt. Who do these players owe their wages to? Hearts? Romanov? Kaunas? Ukio Bankas? When one of them is sold - such as Velicka - who gets the money? How many of the Lithuanian intake actually wanted to go to Hearts? So, not only do you have a large collection of substandard players but you also have a large collection of disinterested players who are either treating it as a holiday or viewing Hearts as little more than a training exercise.

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Post by StAndrewsHMFC » Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:38 pm

lbb wrote:That's probably true. However, the issue is that Hearts are full of foreign players who couldn't give two hoots about them and the nature of the ownership of these players is in doubt. Who do these players owe their wages to? Hearts? Romanov? Kaunas? Ukio Bankas? When one of them is sold - such as Velicka - who gets the money? How many of the Lithuanian intake actually wanted to go to Hearts? So, not only do you have a large collection of substandard players but you also have a large collection of disinterested players who are either treating it as a holiday or viewing Hearts as little more than a training exercise.
Money is money, I don't think anyone will be losing sleep about were in the UBIG group the money come from as long as it reaches their bank account.

And money is the crux of the matter. How many foreigners grow up dreaming of playing in Glasgow for Rangers or Celtic? Give us a break, at the end of the day Rangers foreigners are just here for a pay check, same as Hearts. To suggest that your foreigners care deeply about the club compared to Hearts foreigners is quite frankly ridiculous.

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Post by lbb » Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:19 am

StAndrewsHMFC wrote: And money is the crux of the matter. How many foreigners grow up dreaming of playing in Glasgow for Rangers or Celtic? Give us a break, at the end of the day Rangers foreigners are just here for a pay check, same as Hearts. To suggest that your foreigners care deeply about the club compared to Hearts foreigners is quite frankly ridiculous.
I think you misunderstand.

A foreigner playing for Rangers, for example, will at least know that his contract, and thus his lucrative salary, is dependent upon his performances on the field for Rangers. It doesn't always work like that but there is, at least, a direct relationship between employer and employee and therefore some incentive for both parties. At the end of day, at least both parties have agreed on the deal.

I'm not sure that at Hearts there is such a direct relationship; whether it matters, financially to them, whether these guys perform or not; whether the Hearts management wanted half these players; whether half these players wanted to be at Hearts; and so on.

So, in my view, it's not analogous to the Old Firm, say, signing a foreign player and it not working out. The number of players whose origins, intentions and contracts are mysterious is too great at Hearts and is clearly damaging relationships and morale at Tynecastle.

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Post by the hibLOG » Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:57 am

Professional footballers, wherever they come from, will work hard and try their best on the pitch for whatever team they play for when they are properly managed and motivated. It is obvious that proper management is absent from almost every aspect of Hearts' operations and has been, almost since the day Romanov first walked in the door. The success of two seasons ago is most likely attributable to the on-field management of Stephen Pressley which held the side together amidst the gathering chaos off the pitch.

The present squad is not as good as last season or the season before, but it is plenty good enough to be challenging for European qualification alongside the present contenders. Its failure is entirely down to the pervasive absence of direction and the impression that the captain is not in the wheelhouse while the ship drifts towards the rocks.
Fraser

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Post by lbb » Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:48 am

Fraser, I agree that the problem comes from above. The complete absence of leadership and direction and no obvious strategy regards the acquisition of players all comes from above and is therefore not comparable, imo, to the odd dud signing or two. It's systematic at Tynecastle.

I disagree with the quality of their squad. Even when the management team have been left to their own devices - as much as that can be possible at Hearts - performances have not improved significantly. Quite simply it's because the players aren't there and they're not there because of the man running the club, whatever his agenda is.

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