Queen of the South

The place to discuss Scottish football
Scottish
Site Admin
Posts: 7665
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:51 pm
Contact:

Queen of the South

Post by Scottish » Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:36 pm

What can you say? Especially the fifteen minutes after half-time. Absolutely sensational and a well-deserved victory. And - at the time of writing - with both Partick Thistle and St Johnstone still in the competition the chance for the Scottish Cup Final to have two sides from outside the top division for the first time since league football began.

Like most people I thought they had a chance - but for a 1-0 or 2-1 at best. I don't think there'll be too many correct score coupons being cashed in.

Two gripes about the commentary. Who are these 'DoonHAMMERS' that were referred to? Any relation to West Ham?

And when after Queens scored the opening goal the commentator said they had already done better than on their previous SF appearance in 1950. Not so. That game ended 1-1 with Rangers winning the reply 3-0.

Sat31March1928
Posts: 1366
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:50 pm
Location: Musselburgh
Contact:

Post by Sat31March1928 » Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:50 am

Just done a wee bit of research on how many games teams have played without getting to the final.

QOS were 5th on that list. The team they took their name from 35th. See below.

Also some classic footage.

Record crowd

http://www.londonhearts.com/scores/vide ... 22301.html

QOS in a 11 goal thriller

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCVIds1dVGk




rank team g w d l f a
1 Arbroath 238 87 2 107 485 459
2 St Johnstone 216 79 0 95 342 389
3 Alloa Athletic 214 73 0 95 324 413
4 East Stirlingshire 209 71 0 102 366 435
5 Queen of the South 205 87 0 81 352 337
6 Cowdenbeath 204 77 0 91 374 359
7 Ayr United 196 73 0 84 326 329
8 Stenhousemuir 180 54 0 90 227 338
9 Forfar Athletic 177 61 0 96 308 419
10 Montrose 174 58 1 79 295 355
11 Brechin City 170 53 0 76 270 326
12 Stranraer 166 55 0 81 222 364
13 Berwick Rangers 146 50 0 66 227 254
14 Stirling Albion 141 52 0 61 227 228
15 Inverness Caledonian 106 38 0 50 201 268
16 Clydebank 97 33 0 36 113 144
17 Arthurlie 95 42 3 34 180 163
18 Abercorn 90 43 2 26 311 180
19 Elgin City 87 27 0 46 137 220
19 Leith Athletic 87 25 1 47 176 221
21 Kings Park 78 27 0 36 178 201
22 Port Glasgow Athletic 73 35 0 25 189 152
23 Ross County 72 28 0 34 141 157
24 Boness 70 24 0 33 116 168
25 Buckie Thistle 65 24 0 30 126 140
26 Peterhead 63 17 0 39 77 145
27 Hurlford 60 27 4 18 134 135
28 Fraserburgh 50 13 0 31 89 130
28 Gala Fairydean 50 11 0 33 73 153
28 Meadowbank Thistle 50 18 0 20 71 81
31 Mauchline 49 29 0 14 100 62
31 Peebles Rovers 49 15 0 22 90 144
31 Ayr F.C. 49 23 1 21 133 127
34 Inverness Thistle 48 12 0 30 67 121
35 Queen of the South Wanderers 46 27 0 15 194 112
36 Vale of Leithen 45 7 0 35 54 158
37 Royal Albert 44 14 0 20 108 98
37 Kilbirnie 44 22 0 14 79 68
39 Keith 43 10 0 28 65 127
39 Inverness Clachnacuddin 43 13 0 24 80 114
Jackson; James; Jackson; James; Jackson

Skyline Drifter
Posts: 790
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:34 pm
Location: Dumfries
Contact:

Re: Queen of the South

Post by Skyline Drifter » Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:50 am

scottish wrote:What can you say? Especially the fifteen minutes after half-time. Absolutely sensational and a well-deserved victory. And - at the time of writing - with both Partick Thistle and St Johnstone still in the competition the chance for the Scottish Cup Final to have two sides from outside the top division for the first time since league football began.

Like most people I thought they had a chance - but for a 1-0 or 2-1 at best. I don't think there'll be too many correct score coupons being cashed in.

Two gripes about the commentary. Who are these 'DoonHAMMERS' that were referred to? Any relation to West Ham?

And when after Queens scored the opening goal the commentator said they had already done better than on their previous SF appearance in 1950. Not so. That game ended 1-1 with Rangers winning the reply 3-0.
And we led that first game against Rangers 1-0 for much of the game!

Oh happy days! I might wake up soon and find this was all a dream. 4-3 v an SPL top half side despite our top scorer limping off after half an hour. Incredible.

:D

Alan McCabe
Posts: 503
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:01 am
Location: Falkirk
Contact:

Post by Alan McCabe » Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:46 am

Super game. And as a follower of a club that rarely reaches Finals I can wholly understand the genuine euphoria and outpouring of emotions both on the pitch and in the stands. Well done the underdog!
As usual though, the Glaswegian media ranks are ready to dampen the enthusiasm...or so it would seem. On Afternoon Sportscene (how can this truly be classed as a sports programme?), Broadfoot was first in with the predictable boot as he stated "It sets up the possibility of a QOS v Partick or St Johnstone Final. What with no sponsor and the possibility of a half-empty stadium, the SFA will be worried".
Ain't it strange how this was said of the 87, 91, 97 and 06 Finals, yet all were sell-outs. Indeed the Gretna v Hearts Final posted the highest attendance of the Finals at the new National Stadium due to there being no requirement for banks of empty seats between 'rival' fans.
Broadfoot and his ilk should just side-step any all-First Division Final if its going to be such an embarassment as, I'm sure, their place could be offered to a far more worthy and dedicated onlooker.
Then again, maybe we could just exempt the Old Firm to the semi-finals stage and all would be rosy in the garden of the media hacks? With the introduction of the juniors added to the long overdue appearance of Queens in a national final, I reckon the 2007-08 Scottish Cup has been a memorable one.

Sat31March1928
Posts: 1366
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:50 pm
Location: Musselburgh
Contact:

Post by Sat31March1928 » Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:40 am

Alan McCabe wrote:Super game. And as a follower of a club that rarely reaches Finals I can wholly understand the genuine euphoria and outpouring of emotions both on the pitch and in the stands. Well done the underdog!
As usual though, the Glaswegian media ranks are ready to dampen the enthusiasm...or so it would seem. On Afternoon Sportscene (how can this truly be classed as a sports programme?), Broadfoot was first in with the predictable boot as he stated "It sets up the possibility of a QOS v Partick or St Johnstone Final. What with no sponsor and the possibility of a half-empty stadium, the SFA will be worried".
Ain't it strange how this was said of the 87, 91, 97 and 06 Finals, yet all were sell-outs. Indeed the Gretna v Hearts Final posted the highest attendance of the Finals at the new National Stadium due to there being no requirement for banks of empty seats between 'rival' fans.
Broadfoot and his ilk should just side-step any all-First Division Final if its going to be such an embarassment as, I'm sure, their place could be offered to a far more worthy and dedicated onlooker.
Then again, maybe we could just exempt the Old Firm to the semi-finals stage and all would be rosy in the garden of the media hacks? With the introduction of the juniors added to the long overdue appearance of Queens in a national final, I reckon the 2007-08 Scottish Cup has been a memorable one.
Well said! The atmosphere at the 2006 final was the 'best' in terms of friendliness of any of the semis and finals I've attended. The only thing that spoiled it slightly was the ludicrous loud music played at the end. "We are the Champions" et al, at full blast which prevented the Gretna players and fans hearing the Hearts fans giving them a great cheer.
Jackson; James; Jackson; James; Jackson

Scottish
Site Admin
Posts: 7665
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:51 pm
Contact:

Post by Scottish » Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:46 pm

Alan McCabe wrote: On Afternoon Sportscene (how can this truly be classed as a sports programme?), Broadfoot was first in with the predictable boot as he stated "It sets up the possibility of a QOS v Partick or St Johnstone Final. What with no sponsor and the possibility of a half-empty stadium, the SFA will be worried".
Fortunately I missed it - wouldn't have been good for the old blood pressure. The same nonsense was spouted in some quarters in England before the semi-finals. Two 80,000+ crowds told their own story.

Even if you accepted Broadfoot's argument (which I don't) then the corollary is that the police and local people will be delighted.

In any case both Celtic's and Rangers' last semi-final appearances in the Scottish Cup have drawn under 30,000 while the biggest semi-final attendance of the last 15 years at Hampden was Hearts v Hibs in 2006.

If Broadfoot wants comparisons he need look no further than that. As for Finals last year's League Cup Final between Hibs and Killie drew more than this year's which had Rangers in it and in the Scottish Cup more people watched Hearts and Gretna in 2006 than the Old Firm in 2002.

While I concede a QOS - St Johnstone final might struggle to sell out I don't think it would have any difficulty in hitting 40,000+

StAndrewsHMFC
Posts: 99
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:26 pm
Contact:

Post by StAndrewsHMFC » Sun Apr 13, 2008 6:48 pm

I had the misfortune to catch afternoon sportscene yesterday, you forgot to mention him moaning about the fact that it is likey QOTS will be in europe and how much of an embaressment it will be, and how Gordon Smoth needs to stop this now (I think he's assuming that Queens will lose to Rangers in the final).

Notice StJohnstone are 2nd on that list, QOTS v St.J would be a fantastic final, and just to alay Broadfoots' fears I'd definately go along, unless there are enough QOTS and Saints fans that want to go

Burnie_man

Post by Burnie_man » Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:55 pm

Alan McCabe wrote:Super game. And as a follower of a club that rarely reaches Finals I can wholly understand the genuine euphoria and outpouring of emotions both on the pitch and in the stands. Well done the underdog!
As usual though, the Glaswegian media ranks are ready to dampen the enthusiasm...or so it would seem. On Afternoon Sportscene (how can this truly be classed as a sports programme?), Broadfoot was first in with the predictable boot as he stated "It sets up the possibility of a QOS v Partick or St Johnstone Final. What with no sponsor and the possibility of a half-empty stadium, the SFA will be worried".
Ain't it strange how this was said of the 87, 91, 97 and 06 Finals, yet all were sell-outs. Indeed the Gretna v Hearts Final posted the highest attendance of the Finals at the new National Stadium due to there being no requirement for banks of empty seats between 'rival' fans.
Broadfoot and his ilk should just side-step any all-First Division Final if its going to be such an embarassment as, I'm sure, their place could be offered to a far more worthy and dedicated onlooker.
Then again, maybe we could just exempt the Old Firm to the semi-finals stage and all would be rosy in the garden of the media hacks? With the introduction of the juniors added to the long overdue appearance of Queens in a national final, I reckon the 2007-08 Scottish Cup has been a memorable one.
Well said. My contempt for Broadfoot knows no bounds and proves that The Herald's recruitment policy requires a considerable overhaul.

Sat31March1928
Posts: 1366
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:50 pm
Location: Musselburgh
Contact:

Post by Sat31March1928 » Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:20 am

Just watched the first 20 minutes of the second half. Extraordinary stuff. I know that the current bunch of wastrels playing at Tynecastle wouldn't have had the guts to comeback 3 times to take the lead.

Good to see Neil ("The Dog") McFarlane getting stuck in.
Jackson; James; Jackson; James; Jackson

lbb
Posts: 1316
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:25 am
Contact:

Post by lbb » Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:58 am

StAndrewsHMFC wrote:I had the misfortune to catch afternoon sportscene yesterday, you forgot to mention him moaning about the fact that it is likey QOTS will be in europe and how much of an embaressment it will be, and how Gordon Smoth needs to stop this now (I think he's assuming that Queens will lose to Rangers in the final).
I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption to make - no such thing as a poor bookie and all that.

I thought that after the Gretna embarrassment that it had been agreed not to allow cup runners up into European football. Or perhaps it had only been talked about and not actually agreed. I thought everyone had agreed that it was in the best interests of Scottish football to have its best teams representing it in European competition. In saying that, it doesn't make much of a case for Aberdeen either, you have to say.
scottish wrote: In any case both Celtic's and Rangers' last semi-final appearances in the Scottish Cup have drawn under 30,000 while the biggest semi-final attendance of the last 15 years at Hampden was Hearts v Hibs in 2006.
'Last 15 years' refers to a time when Hampden was at various states of disrepair, reduced capacity, etc. How often do Hearts and Hibs play each other in a semi-final?

I'd be extremely surprised if the Hearts-Hibs attendance wasn't anomalous for both clubs.

Scottish
Site Admin
Posts: 7665
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:51 pm
Contact:

Post by Scottish » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:25 am

What many of the pundits either conveniently forget or are apparently unaware of is that the rules for European entry are determined by UEFA, not the SFA and that the place allotted for Cup Winners/losing finalists is part of the legacy of the Cup-Winners Cup.

When that competition was abolished part of the quid pro quo was that all sides from all UEFA members previously eligible for the ECWC would in future be entered into the UEFA Cup.

There is a myth which has sprung up, aided, abetted and in some cases generated by the football press that somehow the SFA deliberately deprives the SPL of a European place when that is manifestly not the case.

There is – to the best of my knowledge – only one occasion when a team has entered Europe via the Scottish Cup when that side wouldn’t also have played in Europe in the ECWC days. That was when Gretna lost to Hearts in 2006. Prior to the abolition of the CWC and the expansion of the Champions League only teams beaten in a national final by the League Champions would have qualified for the ECWC. Hearts, of course, were runners-up that year but qualified for the CL.

The ignorance/unawareness of the Scottish sporting press is inexcusable as examples of similar qualifications for Europe exist elsewhere. Most obviously in England in 2004 when Millwall qualified for the UEFA Cup despite losing the FA Cup Final to a Man Utd team which finished THIRD in the league! And they were slaughtered in the final. In Gretna’s case it was only a matter of penalty kicks which stopped them from winning the trophy, in which case they would have entered Europe as of right.

That said I would agree that it is in the best interests of Scottish football for the top sides to play in Europe and in a league like the SPL it is not healthy to have in effect just one European place on offer (taking it as read that the OF will qualify). As I understand it the restructuring of UEFA competitions addresses this matter.

But it does so for the whole of Europe, not just Scotland.

But back to Broadfoot. In today’s Herald (as well as yet another bit of managerial advice on when to resign from a post) he talks about the possibility of Queen of the South being in the “embarrassing possession of a place in the UEFA Cup on the back of five games, only one against top-flight opposition.”

There is another option – one which hasn’t entered Broadfoot’s head – that Queen of the South (and St Johnstone) could find themselves in Europe by virtue of WINNING the Scottish Cup. After Saturday only the most blinkered of writers can ignore this possibility.

And as far as embarrassments go could QoS actually do any worse than some of the results suffered in recent seasons by teams which qualified through league position?

Scottish
Site Admin
Posts: 7665
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:51 pm
Contact:

Post by Scottish » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:26 am

lbb wrote:'Last 15 years' refers to a time when Hampden was at various states of disrepair, reduced capacity, etc. How often do Hearts and Hibs play each other in a semi-final?

I'd be extremely surprised if the Hearts-Hibs attendance wasn't anomalous for both clubs.
Okay, let’s put it another way. There have been (last Saturday included) eighteen semi-final matches at Hampden since it was fully revamped and eight of those games have involved one or other of the OF. Of all these ties the Hearts-Hibs crowd was the biggest. I’m fairly sure that will still be the case after the Rangers-St Johnstone semi has been played

lbb
Posts: 1316
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:25 am
Contact:

Post by lbb » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:31 pm

A derby played in the national stadium with the winner facing Gretna - effectively it was the cup final before the cup final - I'd be amazed if it wasn't near to capacity. It's certainly not typical of either club at Hampden, though.

I always thought it was at the SFA's discretion as to who they nominated for their competitions - within reason. So, it was up to them whether the Scottish Cup Finalists got in or not just as they decided (though I have a feeling you're about to tell me otherwise) to remove the European place from the League Cup winners. Or was that UEFA too?

I hinted at your final point with respect to QoS not faring any worse than some - if Aberdeen are shipping 4 goals at Hampden to a First Division team then maybe it's best they stay away from Europe for a while.

Scottish
Site Admin
Posts: 7665
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:51 pm
Contact:

Post by Scottish » Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:02 pm

lbb wrote:A derby played in the national stadium with the winner facing Gretna
The game was the day AFTER the other semi- true - but the Edinburgh supporters didn't know whether their final opponents would be gretna or Dundee when they bought their tickets.
lbb wrote: effectively it was the cup final before the cup final
Ah, the voice of the OF through the ages - lifting cups and winning matches before they're even played
lbb wrote:I always thought it was at the SFA's discretion as to who they nominated for their competitions - within reason. So, it was up to them whether the Scottish Cup Finalists got in or not just as they decided (though I have a feeling you're about to tell me otherwise) to remove the European place from the League Cup winners. Or was that UEFA too?
No, the rules on entry for national cup winners/runners-up are determined by UEFA. There is no discretion on the matter.

The League Cup was/is a separate issue. National FA's can apply for one of their UEFA Cup places to be awarded to League Cup winners. Both England and Scotland used to allocate a place along these lines. However these came with restrictions which didn't apply to the ECWC. For instance a lower division side winning the national trophy - e.g. Sunderland, Southampton, in England, and Castilla in Spain (the latter being Real Madrid reserves who actually - IIRC - met another lower division side in Europe when they played West Ham in the 1980-81 CWC - Carrick Rangers v Southampton in 1976-77 was another all-lower league European tie) all entered the CWC without any problems.

But when lower division sides won the League Cup they were not permitted entry to the UEFA Cup. It sounds contradictory but was actually consistent. The CWC was for Cup winners and the UEFA Cup for sides doing well in the league - the inconsistency was in admitting LC winners in the first place). QPR and Swindon Town both won the English League Cup but were prevented from taking part in the (then) Fairs Cup.

The only exception to this rule was if the lower league side won promotion to the top flight at the same time, thus making them a top league side in the following season. Thus Aston Villa and Raith Rovers both entered the UEFA Cup despite being second level sides when winning the League Cup.

The Football League argued successfully with both the Premiership and UEFA to keep their UEFA Cup place when the CWC was abolished and European entry restructured. AFAIK the SFL/SPL made no such appeal. And rightly so IMHO for it could lead to a situation whereby no European places were up for grabs below runners-up spot in the SPL.

Where Broadfoot is way off beam is with the idea that there is something new or SFA-ordained in losing Cup Finalists entering Europe. It's being happening since the early 1960s. In Scotland the first side to qualify that way were Celtic in the 1963-64 ECWC. And they went on to reach the semi-finals. It's worth pointing out that when Rangers won the ECWC they did so as losing finalists from the previous season.

Broadfoot's line about only playing one top flight side is a red herring. Cup draws are random. Some are tough, some not so tough. Kilmarnock won the Scottish Cup in 1997 by only beating one top division side along the way. Yet no one (north of Symington anyway) suggested their entry into the CWC was somehow bogus.

the hibLOG
Posts: 1163
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:41 am
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Contact:

Post by the hibLOG » Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:10 pm

lbb wrote:A derby played in the national stadium with the winner facing Gretna.
Eight semi-finals in your own back yard. Shall I get a bus across town, or lie in my scratcher all afternoon? Wake me up when it's all over...
Fraser

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests