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lbb
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Post by lbb » Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:51 am

I don't see where they get the idea they should have won easily. For all of their possession, they very rarely carved United open and it had 0-0 on it long before the final whistle. I have to confess to never really liking Barcelona - and my opinion remained unchanged after our encounter with them. Quite an arrogant club and their supporters need a reality check, tbh.

I thought they would have been quite critical of United sitting in and defending for the entire 90 minutes - perhaps that only applies to diddy Scottish clubs who have the cheek to draw with them (Rangers) or, even worse, hump them (Celtic in the UEFA Cup).

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Post by Scottish » Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:46 pm

lbb wrote: Quite an arrogant club and their supporters need a reality check, tbh.
"O wad some gift the giftie gie us, to see ourselves as ithers see us."

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Post by lbb » Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:04 pm

scottish wrote: "O wad some gift the giftie gie us, to see ourselves as ithers see us."
To hear the players shouting at each other during a Champions League semi-final against Man Utd says it all. Being outsung by a few thousand Mancs in a 90,000 crowd says another. What was it Gary Lineker said about them? 'They're more like a theatre crowd than a football crowd.'

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Post by Scottish » Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:24 pm

A bit being like at Ibrox in 1998 when 10-in-a-row died against Killie. or, to be fair, Parkhead the previous season when Killie drew there the night Rangers won their ninth successive title.

And to be ultra-fair, you're right about one thing. No one would ever accuse OF fans of being like a theatre crowd.

Unless they were talking about the legendary post-war days of the Glasgow Empire.

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Post by lbb » Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:00 pm

It's all about context, though. I've rarely seen them get excited about anything - I've seen them play Real Madrid in the Nou Camp and you've had to wonder how on earth 100,000 people can make so little noise. No-one's expecting a ticker tape cauldron every home game but given the context of some of the games, such as Man Utd, I'd expect more from them. I find them quite arrogant. They were abysmal against Rangers too - though it could be argued that this wasn't a big fixture for them. I rarely see them get 'up' for any fixtures though.

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Post by Scottish » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:46 pm

Hmm - given the "atmosphere" generated by some of the chanting at Ibrox & Parkhead I really do wonder whether if OF fans are in sort of position to criticise others.

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Post by Rob » Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:28 pm

On the Rangers fans in Barcelona 20,000 fans travelled to Spain. even before they got there the Press in Spain was full of stories about Orange order marches through the streets of Barcelona. Now I could expect this sort of thing from the Scottish media but where were the Media in Spain getting these stories from. Or who was feeding them to them. Indeed more to the point why were they feeding them these stories. After the game all they could come up with was a few people urinating in the street and the historic city being awash with litter. It seems to me the Rangers fans were on a hiding to nothing. The simple fact is there were no arrests. If this had been the Tartan Army would we have seen the same press. I have followed Scotland abroad and seen the same behaviour carried out.
I do believe that when Rangers fans sing the little party songs they let the club down and should be told that they are but when they do little wrong they should not be treated to the rubbish that the Spanish media and then reprinted by the Scottish media came up with. It was obvious from the start that something was cooking. If this is going to continue every time Rangers fans travel is it not about time Rangers refused all tickets for away games home and abroad. I for one am fed up of being overcharged and then told I am an animal. Or would my money be too important?

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Post by lbb » Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:05 am

Well, at least they won't have to pretend to be interested in the Champions League anymore. One less burden for them. :D

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Post by the hibLOG » Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:35 am

lbb wrote:It's all about context, though. I've rarely seen them get excited about anything - I've seen them play Real Madrid in the Nou Camp and you've had to wonder how on earth 100,000 people can make so little noise.
Of course Rangers fans are famous for getting right behind their team when things aren't going their way :roll:
lbb wrote:Quite an arrogant club and their supporters need a reality check, tbh.
I am in hospital as I type this, having my sides stitched up.
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Post by the hibLOG » Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:51 am

Rob wrote:On the Rangers fans in Barcelona 20,000 fans travelled to Spain. even before they got there the Press in Spain was full of stories about Orange order marches through the streets of Barcelona. Now I could expect this sort of thing from the Scottish media but where were the Media in Spain getting these stories from.
Perhaps their recent visit to Villareal lingers in the memory.
Or who was feeding them to them. Indeed more to the point why were they feeding them these stories.
It's a conspiracy, it is...
After the game all they could come up with was a few people urinating in the street and the historic city being awash with litter. It seems to me the Rangers fans were on a hiding to nothing. The simple fact is there were no arrests. If this had been the Tartan Army would we have seen the same press. I have followed Scotland abroad and seen the same behaviour carried out.
Absolutely true, and I agree that the Tartan Army should be criticised for uncivilised behaviour, but this doesn't mean the Spanish press were out of order to criticise Rangers fans on this occasion. I'm sure there was plenty of public urination in Seville by Celtic fans a few years ago too which the media then chose to turn a blind eye to. The Barcelona press decided they didn't like it this time and chose to say so. Good for them.[/quote]
Fraser

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Post by lbb » Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:54 am

the hibLOG wrote: Of course Rangers fans are famous for getting right behind their team when things aren't going their way :roll:
Sometimes and sometimes they don't. We weren't discussing Rangers though - we were discussing Barcelona.

I've found this 'debate' - such as it is - quite interesting. We have people who would normally affect to dislike the bigger clubs, particularly the Old Firm, suddenly find themselves in admiration of the 'Catalan giants'. We saw this phenomenon close hand in Scotland during pre-season when Barcelona played Dundee United and Hearts. Two clubs who normally reserve abuse for the visits of the Old Firm, found themselves acting like geeky 16-year-old on a first date. The best china was brought out and Dundee Utd and Hearts behaved like slabbering peasants meeting royalty. Of course, when the likes of Henrik Larsson and Ronald de Boer went to Tynecastle and Tannadice they were met with abuse - you couldn't do that to Thierry Henry. At least not while he had autographs to sign.

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Post by the hibLOG » Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:18 pm

lbb wrote: Sometimes and sometimes they don't. We weren't discussing Rangers though - we were discussing Barcelona.
Funny, I thought we were discussing comparisons between the attitudes of the fans of both. If you're going to level criticisms at one 'arrogant' half of a footballing duopoly then you might expect parallels to be drawn. Sauce for the goose.
lbb wrote:I've found this 'debate' - such as it is - quite interesting. We have people who would normally affect to dislike the bigger clubs, particularly the Old Firm, suddenly find themselves in admiration of the 'Catalan giants'. We saw this phenomenon close hand in Scotland during pre-season when Barcelona played Dundee United and Hearts. Two clubs who normally reserve abuse for the visits of the Old Firm, found themselves acting like geeky 16-year-old on a first date. The best china was brought out and Dundee Utd and Hearts behaved like slabbering peasants meeting royalty. Of course, when the likes of Henrik Larsson and Ronald de Boer went to Tynecastle and Tannadice they were met with abuse - you couldn't do that to Thierry Henry. At least not while he had autographs to sign.
You don't think it's reasonable to make a distinction between a pre-season friendly against one of the best teams in the world and a league fixture against one of the teams you most want to beat, and all the local baggage that comes with them? I think most Scottish football fans when asked are perfectly ready to cite the likes of Larsson, Gascoigne and Laudrup as the best players they have ever seen playing in Scotland.

Which kind of brings us right back to the start of this debate - Carlos Cuellar. He's no bad, but he's not exactly Paulo Maldini is he?
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Post by lbb » Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:17 pm

the hibLOG wrote: Funny, I thought we were discussing comparisons between the attitudes of the fans of both.
In that case, there is no comparison. Whatever faults the Rangers support has, it has nothing on the Barcelona support - a support so pampered and ignorant that it waves handkerchiefs and jeers his own team during a Champions League semi-final.
the hibLOG wrote:You don't think it's reasonable to make a distinction between a pre-season friendly against one of the best teams in the world and a league fixture against one of the teams you most want to beat, and all the local baggage that comes with them?
So, if Dundee United and Hearts ever found themselves in regular competition with Barcelona, they would soon reserve for the 'Catalan giants' the lovely welcome at these grounds that we've come to know and love?
the hibLOG wrote:I think most Scottish football fans when asked are perfectly ready to cite the likes of Larsson, Gascoigne and Laudrup as the best players they have ever seen playing in Scotland.
From the same distance of several years away, perhaps.
the hibLOG wrote:Which kind of brings us right back to the start of this debate - Carlos Cuellar. He's no bad, but he's not exactly Paulo Maldini is he?
I don't think anyone ever said he was. Maldini is no Fabio Cannavaro, imo.

I found it amusing that someone like David who so obviously values football knowledge - and is knowledgeable himself - should derive such satisfaction from the ignorance of other football supporters. If some Spanish supporters don't know Carlos Cuellar then it hardly forms any judgement on his abilities and contribution to the Scottish game. Indeed, such an ignorant worldview immediately demolishes any credibility such an opinion may have. Or maybe it doesn't for some people.

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Post by the hibLOG » Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:00 pm

lbb wrote:So, if Dundee United and Hearts ever found themselves in regular competition with Barcelona, they would soon reserve for the 'Catalan giants' the lovely welcome at these grounds that we've come to know and love?
They're from another country - why should they get the same level of dislike that Rangers and Celtic have earned over decades? They wouldn't get the polite appreciation that they got in pre-season. What's so hard to understand about that?

lbb wrote:I found it amusing that someone like David who so obviously values football knowledge - and is knowledgeable himself - should derive such satisfaction from the ignorance of other football supporters. If some Spanish supporters don't know Carlos Cuellar then it hardly forms any judgement on his abilities and contribution to the Scottish game. Indeed, such an ignorant worldview immediately demolishes any credibility such an opinion may have. Or maybe it doesn't for some people.
You love wilfully twisting the points that people try to make to you. David did no such thing as take delight in the ignorance of Barcelona fans, he pointed out that there was no reason for Cuellar to be better known to them than a below average SPL player to Rangers fans, the point being that he has simply found his level in Scotland. He was stating that having a good season and coming from Spain somehow made him more deserving of a PotY award in the eyes of many Rangers fans.
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Post by lbb » Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:07 pm

the hibLOG wrote: You love wilfully twisting the points that people try to make to you. David did no such thing as take delight in the ignorance of Barcelona fans
He clearly anticipated that we should read some merit into their views. I dispute that we should do so.

If he came out and stated he didn't think Cuellar deserved the award, for whatever reason, it would at least be more honest than hiding behind half-baked opinions from Spain. It was beneath him, I feel.
the hibLOG wrote:He was stating that having a good season and coming from Spain somehow made him more deserving of a PotY award in the eyes of many Rangers fans.
I never heard anyone say 'Carlos comes from Spain, he deserves to be POTY'.

I think being part of a defence that's kept 11 clean sheets in 17 European matches (Zeta (2), Red Star (2), Lyon, Barcelona, Panathinaikos, Werder Bremen, Sporting Lisbon (2), Fiorentina) might have something to do with it. Though this might be him, as you say, just finding his level.

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