FIFA membership

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FIFA membership

Post by Scottish » Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:25 am

I've started this as a separate topic as the thread on Euro 2016 has become bound up with the 2012 Olympics. Most of the objections to Scottish participation in the latter all tend to raise the bogeyman of Scotland's place in FIFA. Here are the relevant clauses from FIFA's statutes on membership:

Article 10, para 5 says: “each of the four British associations is recognised as a separate Member of FIFA.”

Article 15 deals with expulsions and says:
1 The Congress may expel a Member:
(a) if it fails to fulfil its financial obligations towards FIFA; or
(b) if it seriously violates the Statutes, regulations, decisions or the Code of Ethics of FIFA; or
(c) if it loses the status of an Association representing Association Football in its country.


2. The presence of an absolute majority of Members entitled to vote at the Congress is necessary for an expulsion to be valid, and the motion for expulsion must be adopted by a three-quarter majority of the votes taken.

The same 75% rule applies regarding any attempt to change the FIFA statutes.

In other words if the will was there FIFA could amend their statutes to recognise just one UK association at any time. It could in theory happen this year. Or last year. Or next year. I cannot for the life of me come up with any scenario in which over 150 countries (a 75% majority) vote to do so. IMHO this is the reddest of red herrings.

Burnie_man

Re: FIFA membership

Post by Burnie_man » Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:34 pm

scottish wrote:I've started this as a separate topic as the thread on Euro 2016 has become bound up with the 2012 Olympics. Most of the objections to Scottish participation in the latter all tend to raise the bogeyman of Scotland's place in FIFA. Here are the relevant clauses from FIFA's statutes on membership:

Article 10, para 5 says: “each of the four British associations is recognised as a separate Member of FIFA.”

Article 15 deals with expulsions and says:
1 The Congress may expel a Member:
(a) if it fails to fulfil its financial obligations towards FIFA; or
(b) if it seriously violates the Statutes, regulations, decisions or the Code of Ethics of FIFA; or
(c) if it loses the status of an Association representing Association Football in its country.


2. The presence of an absolute majority of Members entitled to vote at the Congress is necessary for an expulsion to be valid, and the motion for expulsion must be adopted by a three-quarter majority of the votes taken.

The same 75% rule applies regarding any attempt to change the FIFA statutes.

In other words if the will was there FIFA could amend their statutes to recognise just one UK association at any time. It could in theory happen this year. Or last year. Or next year. I cannot for the life of me come up with any scenario in which over 150 countries (a 75% majority) vote to do so. IMHO this is the reddest of red herrings.
Any of FIFA's statutes/rules/laws can be changed at the behest of it's members.

The formation of a GB team for the Olympics set's a dangerous precedent, at present there is no modern precedent for a permanent GB team therefore there are no grounds to call for one.

The man himself says it's a bad idea:
http://sport.scotsman.com/londonolympic ... 3858830.jp

The best solution for London (in 2012] is that only the English team play. That's the best solution. To make a combined team is not a good idea."

.....and again:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympic ... 286011.stm

"If you start to put together a combined team for the Olympic Games, the question will automatically come up that there are four different associations so how can they play in one team.

"If this is the case then why the hell do they have four associations and four votes and their own vice-presidency?

"This will put into question all the privileges that the British associations have been given by the Congress in 1946."


------

A 17 year veteran of FIFA, David Will, says it's a bad idea:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympic ... 071200.stm

"We should not take the chance of joining a British team.

"I have never accepted that we should take such a risk."

"For many years there were threats to the independence and those could surface again."


------

The UEFA General Secretary, David Taylor, warns against it:

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/2008 ... -20891039/

"The reason this is an issue is because Scotland is not an independent country and FIFA only recognise independent countries.

"Something which is repeated to us is that Scotland are privileged to be recognised in the manner we are. We do take this for granted a little bit.

"But other countries are asking why Scotland is allowed to have its own team - and really it all comes down to that.

"People are trying to make this a political point when it is actually a football point."


------

FAW President:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/footballna ... -21412558/

“Imagine the next Fifa meeting after London, you would get people saying: “They have always said they are four separate nations, but they were Great Britain for the Olympics – why should it not be the same for the World Cup?

It has been tried before and we have fiercely resisted, so there is no way that we will take a chance of opening that door of opportunity.”


------

So there you have it, the FIFA President, the UEFA General Secretary, a former FIFA Vice President and the FAW President all clearly stating that it's a bad idea and that it has been suggested in the past that the 4 home nations should loose their independent priviledges. In years to come guys like Jack Warner could be in the driving seat at FIFA, and his views on the 4 home nations are questionable at best. There have also been calls recently for UEFA's places at the WC Finals to be reduced and more given to the likes of Africa and Asia, this cannot be dismissed as no threat to the home nations, especially if a precedent has already been set.

Is it worth gambling with the futures of our International teams? these guys dont seem to think so, but oddly Gordon Brown does.

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Post by Scottish » Sat Dec 06, 2008 8:56 pm

Coulds, maybes, perhapses, mights.

How many times has the issue been debated at a FIFA congress? Only two members are needed to bring a resolution for debate so how many times has it happened? Scots played as part of a GB team up to the qualifiers for the 1972 Games without any problem so a 2012 team establishes no precedent.

Who has anything to gain from such a move? The only possibility is that a removal of the FOUR home associations could reduce the European qualifying numbers. Who in their right minds thinks any European country will vote to do so? It could be France, Italy or Germany which misses out as a result. Scotland haven't qualified since 1998, Northern Ireland since 1986 and Wales since 1958. One less European team doesn't mean one less team from the UK.

Wales were the best supported European team in the 2006 qualifiers in Europe. No country is going to give up the cash that ties against England, Scotland and Wales generates in gate money, travelling fans and TV rights.

But according to you there are around 150 countries just itching to get rid of us. Ridiculous.

But, let's say you're right and there is a seething mass of FIFA members with their fingers on the trigger. They don't need any excuse. As you say they could just go ahead and do it.

Wonder what's stopping them.

Burnie_man

Post by Burnie_man » Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:41 am

scottish wrote:Coulds, maybes, perhapses, mights.

How many times has the issue been debated at a FIFA congress? Only two members are needed to bring a resolution for debate so how many times has it happened? Scots played as part of a GB team up to the qualifiers for the 1972 Games without any problem so a 2012 team establishes no precedent.

Who has anything to gain from such a move? The only possibility is that a removal of the FOUR home associations could reduce the European qualifying numbers. Who in their right minds thinks any European country will vote to do so? It could be France, Italy or Germany which misses out as a result. Scotland haven't qualified since 1998, Northern Ireland since 1986 and Wales since 1958. One less European team doesn't mean one less team from the UK.

Wales were the best supported European team in the 2006 qualifiers in Europe. No country is going to give up the cash that ties against England, Scotland and Wales generates in gate money, travelling fans and TV rights.

But according to you there are around 150 countries just itching to get rid of us. Ridiculous.

But, let's say you're right and there is a seething mass of FIFA members with their fingers on the trigger. They don't need any excuse. As you say they could just go ahead and do it.

Wonder what's stopping them.
I don't need to add anything really, better football people than me, including those who have been administrators at the very top echelons of FIFA, have said it's a precedent that would be unwise to set.

That's good enough for me rather than men in grey suits from the UK Government telling us there's nothing to worry about, after receiving assurances from a proven liar Jerome Valcke.

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Post by Scottish » Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:34 pm

You failed or refused to answer a single point I made. But that’s fine. Let’s do it your way. In your eyes those who agree with you are “administrators at the very top echelons of FIFA” while any who disagree can be labeled as a “proven liar” I hold no brief for Valcke (who is suppose is also an “administrator at the very top echelon of FIFA” but I will say that he won his appeal and he was appointed with the knowledge and approval of the man you laud as “the man himself.” Of course Sepp Blatter changes his mind more often than most people change their socks. Take this from “the man himself” 2005: “We have confirmed in writing that they have to provide a Great Britain team for the 2012 Olympics. But the four British associations will not lose their rights and privileges they acquired in 1947.” Now he says something totally different? Well, I suppose that makes him a “proven liar” as well.

Of course it also means that “better football people” than you welcome a British team in 2012

David Will mentions a threat but fails to be specific. After all those years as a vice-president you’d think he could name names. BTW there is one area of British privilege which needs addressing and that’s the guaranteed FIFA vice-presidency. How that can be justified in the 21st century is beyond me.

Now, I’ll ask again, how many times in the past 60 years has there been an attempt to remove the status of the four home nations? What is stopping it from happening? Name one FIFA member that wants to do this. Now, name another 150 that support them.

It is a fantasy.

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Post by Gersman » Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:49 pm

scottish wrote: BTW there is one area of British privilege which needs addressing and that’s the guaranteed FIFA vice-presidency. How that can be justified in the 21st century is beyond me.
Whit? Bad enough depriving FIFA of the wit and wisdom of John McBeth without them losing Geoff Thompson as well
Fifty one and counting

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