SFA Roll

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honestman
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SFA Roll

Post by honestman » Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:20 pm

I am trying to find which clubs were struck off the SFA Roll for seasons 1883/84 and 1884/85. I have found a note that states 33 clubs were struck off the SFA Roll for the 1884/85 season.
Does this drop in membership suggest that there was a lull during this period in Scottish football? Any information would be most helpful.

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Post by Scottish » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:04 pm

There were 34 struck off according to the 1885 SFA AGM but 33 admitted leaving a membership of 132. The 1884 AGM was told that that membership of 133 (including one from Newfoundland!!!) was the highest ever.

So it looks just like the normal ebb and flow of some clubs folding and others starting up (sometimes more or less the same clubs in a different guise).

I don't think those numbers changed a great deal. Obviously the establishment of league football in 1890 and professionalism in 1893 had an effect but even in 1896-97 there were 119 clubs in the Qualifying Cup with a further 16 exempt making 135 (assuming membership of the SFA was a pre-requisite for Scottish Cup entry).

And even after the downturn of the 1920s, the third division going under and several second division clubs folding the last national Qualifying Cup competition in 1930-31 drew 59 entries plus 42 exempt, meaning there were still just over 100 clubs.

By comparison there are 77 member clubs in 2008-09.

Brian McColl's list of clubs arranged by Scottish Cup entry should provide a good indication of which were the new members for the years in question and also which ones departed.

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Post by Scottish » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:50 pm

The current 77 member clubs are comprised as follows:

All 12 SPL, all 30 SFL, all 15 Highland League = 57.

East of Scotland League 11: Civil Service Strollers, Coldstream, Edinburgh City, Edinburgh University, Gala Fairydean, Hawick Royal Albert, Preston Athletic, Selkirk, Spartans, Vale of Leithen, Whitehill Welfare

South of Scotland League 5: Dalbeattie Star, Newton Stewart, St Cuthbert Wanderers, Threave Rovers, Wigtown & Bladnoch

Ayrshire District League: Girvan
Caledonian Amateur League: Glasgow University
Kingdom Caledonian Amateur League: Burntisland Shipyard Amateur
North Caledonian League: Golspie Sutherland

There are now nine affiliated 'regional' associations. Oddly enough Livingston, Morton and Airdrie United don't appear to be part of any.

Dalbeattie Star (like Annan before them) are members of both the EOSL & the SSL but for SFA membership purposes they are included as part of the SSL, presumably as they are part of the affiliated Southern Counties FA.

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Post by kiwiscot » Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:54 am

David, you say they are 9 regional assocations , have they done away with county FA's, and is the Glasgow FA still in existance ?

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Post by Scottish » Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:28 am

There was a re-structuring a few years ago, the main consequence of which was that the Ayrshire, Renfrewshire & Lanarkshire associations were more or less combined into a single West of Scotland FA. Perhaps Scottish FA can explain better if he sees this.

The nine affiliated associations are:
Aberdeenshire & District
East of Scotland
Fife
Forfarshire
Glasgow
North of Scotland
Southern Counties
Stirlingshire
West of Scotland

Within these there are some anomalies - Dumbarton and Alloa are in Stirlingshire, St Johnstone in Forfarshire and Clyde remain in Glasgow. Until their demise Gretna were in the East of Scotland FA.

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Re: SFA Roll

Post by Scottish » Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:48 am

honestman wrote:I am trying to find which clubs were struck off the SFA Roll for seasons 1883/84 and 1884/85.
I've found the 1885 details. Spellings as appeared in the Glasgow Herald August 26th 1885.

Struck off for non-payments:
Cyrus, Deanpark, Kinning Park Athletic, Orchard, Possilpark, Springburn, Springburn Hibernians, Clippens, Greenock Rovers, Johnstone Rovers, Kilbarchan, Lyle Athletics, Paisley Athletics, Pollokshaws, Cunninghame, Kilmarnock Athletics, Airdrie, Airdriehill, Chryston, Clarkston, Glengowan, Vale of Avon, Stenhousemuir, Strathblane, Tayavalla, Lindertis, Perseverance, Newton-Stewart Athletics

Admissions were:
Alpha, Dunfermline Athletics, Paisley Hibernians, Forfar Athletics, Union, Monkcastle, Cowdenbeath, Southern Athletics, Oban, Broxburn Shamrock, Camelon, Bonhill, 10th LRV, Broughty, Aberdeen Rovers, Bon Accord, Westbourne, Avondale, Ayr Rovers, Grahamston, Linthouse, Cambuslang Hibernians, Clydesdale, Woodvale, Lanemark, St Peter's, Mearns Athletic, Helensburgh, Kirkintilloch Athletics, Glencairn

You'll note that this doesn't tally with the numbers I gave earlier. Those came from the Herald of May 20th 1885 from a report on "The annual general business meeting" of the SFA. The August 26th edition referred to "the annual meeting" of the SFA.

The May meeting was definitely the AGM as the business conducted shows - election of officers, financial report, amendments to rules etc. The August meeting elected the business, charity & professional committees, made the draw for the first round of the Scottish Cup and received the details about lapsed and new member clubs.

So I can't explain the discrepancies between the stated numbers in May and the named clubs in August but the gist is the same. Broadly speaking the SFA recruited as many (if not more) than they lost at this time.

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Post by kiwiscot » Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:59 am

I missed all that over here. Some of the quirkier ones are understandable ie Alloa in a very small county bordering Stirlingshire but I could never understand Clydebank and Dumbarton in it. Clyde probably historically to the Glasgow FA although Cumbernauld used to be in Dunbartonshire & is now in Lanarkshire , take your pick there , and I think St Johnstone started playing in the Forfarshire Cup when Perthshire & Angus were merged into Tayside in the Local Goverment Act in 1973 or 4, especially since Perthshire's other SFA member clubs had long since given up the ghost and left no opposition for a County Cup. Thanks for that , the new West of Scotland Association was a new one on me.

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Post by Scottish » Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:02 am

1884 admissions. Again, spelling is as reported at the time:

Neilston,Grasshoppers, Lindertis, Crieff Juniors, Thornhill, Pollokshields, Greenock Rovers, Bo'ness, Glengowan, Albion Rovers, Dykehead, Wishaw Swifts, Greenock Rangers, 1st KRV, Kinning Park Athletics, Airdriehill, Shawlands, Albion, Westburn, Chryston Eastern Athletics, Norton Park, Dumbarton Athletics, Rock, Springburn Hibernians, GUYMCAAC, Dalry, Central, Cyrus, Pollokshaws. The Dumbartonshire, Forfarshire & Stirlingshire associations were also admitted.

Reference to 33 clubs struck off but no names

I presume the weirdly-initialled club was the Glasgow University Young Mens Christian Association Athletic Club.

No reference to this being an annual meeting (the AGM was in May) so again my presumption is that the reference to an "annual" meeting in August 1885 is an error.

Again the names and numbers don't tally. If there were 33 struck off in 1884 and membership was at its highest ever (as the AGM in May was informed) then there should have been more admissions than listed above.

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Re: SFA Roll

Post by Scottish » Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:09 am

kiwiscot wrote:I missed all that over here.
A lot of it passed by over there as well. Yes, some of the quirks are historic. Dumbarton have played in the Stirlingshire Cup for many years for example. And, as you say, Clyde have always been in the Glasgow FA. Another factor is that the traditional counties no longer exist - in administrative form at any rate - and haven't done so for decades.

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Post by honestman » Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:35 pm

Thanks David, my reason for asking in the first place is that I have been doing some research on Kilbirnie FC and they seemed to be inactive during the 1883/84 season. They scratched to Kilmarnock in the 1st round of the Scottish Cup and did not appear in the Ayrshire Cup.

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Post by Skyline Drifter » Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:37 pm

scottish wrote:There was a re-structuring a few years ago, the main consequence of which was that the Ayrshire, Renfrewshire & Lanarkshire associations were more or less combined into a single West of Scotland FA. Perhaps Scottish FA can explain better if he sees this.

The nine affiliated associations are:
Aberdeenshire & District
East of Scotland
Fife
Forfarshire
Glasgow
North of Scotland
Southern Counties
Stirlingshire
West of Scotland

Within these there are some anomalies - Dumbarton and Alloa are in Stirlingshire, St Johnstone in Forfarshire and Clyde remain in Glasgow. Until their demise Gretna were in the East of Scotland FA.
Why were Gretna in the East of Scotland FA? They never played there did they?

They certainly entered the Southern Counties FA Cup because we played them in it.

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Post by Scottish » Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:23 pm

Skyline Drifter wrote:]
Why were Gretna in the East of Scotland FA?
Who knows? They certainly appear there in the current list of affiliates (presumably drawn up before their demise as it refers to Gretna FC and not the successor club). However in the list for 2005-06 they are in their 'proper' place in the Southern Counties. That season also shows the three clubs missing this season as belonging to the appropriate affiliate - Airdrie United and Morton in the West of Scotland FA and Livingston in the East.

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Post by Scottish » Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:32 pm

honestman wrote:Thanks David, my reason for asking in the first place is that I have been doing some research on Kilbirnie FC and they seemed to be inactive during the 1883/84 season. They scratched to Kilmarnock in the 1st round of the Scottish Cup and did not appear in the Ayrshire Cup.
In my book 'Killie, the Official History' (1994) I started this season's coverage by writing: "If ever there was a time when success was a must then this was the season. Players were leaving Scotland in droves as illegal payments by English clubs became commonplace. And clubs were struggling to survive. Portland failed to appear this year while others such as Beith, Kilbirnie and Mauchline maintained a precarious hold on existence. But the Mauchline club were still capable of giving Killie a hard time, their games being described as 'hand-to-hand and heel-to-head encounters'"

Kilbirnie certainly weren't in the habit of scratching. I can find only two other instances in the Scottish Cup - in their first season in the competition in 1875-76 and their last - in the 1896-97 Qualifying Cup. But it may be that they went into hibernation for a while. I don't have them appearing in the Scottish Cup again until 1886-87.

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Post by Skyline Drifter » Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:35 pm

scottish wrote:
Skyline Drifter wrote:]
Why were Gretna in the East of Scotland FA?
Who knows? They certainly appear there in the current list of affiliates (presumably drawn up before their demise as it refers to Gretna FC and not the successor club). However in the list for 2005-06 they are in their 'proper' place in the Southern Counties. That season also shows the three clubs missing this season as belonging to the appropriate affiliate - Airdrie United and Morton in the West of Scotland FA and Livingston in the East.
Ah, sorry, I thought you were saying that they'd always been affiliated to the East of Scotland. You are saying that this was only the case in their final season?

Still strange though. I thought it was their final season we played them in the Southern Counties FA Cup too, though I'm only going by memory and it might have been the one before. Could it simply be an error at your current source?

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Post by Scottish » Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:50 pm

Yes it could well be an error though I did assume it must always have been the case. I can't think why a club would 'transfer' from one 'region' to another. I took the info from the SFA's 'Associations and Leagues' file, available as a pdf from their website. I've downloaded them all since they first started issuing them but some override earlier on my hard drive. For some reason I gave the 2005-06 one a slightly different file name so it hasn't been written over. I also have the 2001-02 one but of course that was before Gretna joined the SFL so they don't feature at all in it.

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