Rangers Managers Old Firm Records

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Smith Must Score
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Rangers Managers Old Firm Records

Post by Smith Must Score » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:13 pm

Was discussing this in the pub yesterday after the game Walters Old Firm record is pretty impressive..25 wins in 46 encounters, with just 11 defeats...Can anybody give me previous Rangers managers Old Firm Stats...cheers...

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Post by Scottish » Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:54 pm

That figure is for all three domestic competitions and is probably the best record of a Rangers manager since the days of Struth & Symon. Comparable figures are:

William Wilton P53 W13 D19 L21
Bill Struth P64 W35 D16 L13
Scot Symon P51 W26 D11 L14
Davie White P9 W3 D1 L5
Willie Waddell P11 W1 D3 L7
Jock Wallace P36 W14 D10 L12
John Greig P25 W5 D5 L15
Tommy McLean P1 W0 D0 L1
Graeme Souness P25 W12 D4 L9
Walter Smith P46 W25 D10 L11
Dick Advocaat P16 W6 D3 L7
Alex McLeish P25 W8 D4 L13
Paul Le Guen P2 W0 D1 L1

Of course this is comparing apples and pears. White and Waddell's matches were all against Jock Stein's Celtic and as such aren't as bad as say John Greig's.

Half of Scot Symon's defeats were in the League Cup at a time when the OF regarded that competition with even less enthusiasm than today. In terms of League matches only Symon has the best record of any Rangers manager. Then again the vast majority of those games were against the Celtic of Jimmy McGrory, not the scariest proposition in the world.

Yet while Symon has the best league record he also has the 7-1 League Cup Final defeat.

Souness won 50% of his OF league matches, bettered only by Struth, Symon & Smith, yet lost all three Scottish Cup ties during his time at Ibrox.

Willie Waddell's solitary victory was the League Cup Final of 1970-71.

Big Eck won four of seven cup games but only four of eighteen in the SPL.

William Wilton
League P43 W11 D16 L16
Scottish Cup P10 W2 D3 L5

Bill Struth
League P54 W29 D16 L9
Scottish Cup P3 W2 D0 L1
League Cup P7 W4 D0 L3

Scot Symon
League P27 W17 D5 L5
Scottish Cup P10 W4 D4 L2
League Cup P14 W5 D2 L7

Davie White
League P4 W2 D1 L1
Scottish Cup P1 W0 D0 L1
League Cup P4 W1 D0 L3

Willie Waddell
League P5 W0 D2 L3
Scottish Cup P3 W0 D1 L2
League Cup P3 W1 D0 L2

Jock Wallace
League P28 W9 D10 L9
Scottish Cup P2 W1 D0 L1
League Cup P6 W4 D0 L2

John Greig
League P22 W4 D5 L13
Scottish Cup P1 W0 D0 L1
League Cup P2 W1 D0 L1

Graeme Souness
League P20 W10 D4 L6
Scottish Cup P3 W0 D0 L3
League Cup P2 W2 D0 L0

Walter Smith
League P39 W20 D10 L9
Scottish Cup P4 W3 D0 L1
League Cup P3 W2 D0 L1

Dick Advocaat
League P14 W5 D3 L6
Scottish Cup P1 W1 D0 L0
League Cup P1 W0 D0 L1

Alex McLeish
League P18 W4 D4 L10
Scottish Cup P3 W1 D0 L2
League Cup P4 W3 D0 L1

Paul Le Guen
League P2 W0 D1 L1

Tommy McLean
League P1 W0 D0 L1

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Post by Scottish » Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:25 am

And before anyone asks, here's the Celtic managerial record:

Willie Maley P99 W30 D32 L37
Jimmy McGrory P64 W15 D12 L37
Jock Stein P52 W26 D10 L16
Sean Fallon P5 W0 D2 L3
Billy McNeill P43 W21 D8 L14
David Hay P18 W6 D6 L6
Liam Brady P11 W2 D3 L6
Lou Macari P3 W1 D1 L1
Tommy Burns P15 W3 D4 L8
Wim Jansen P5 W1 D1 L3
Jozef Venglos P5 W1 D2 L2
John Barnes P2 W0 D1 L1
Kenny Dalglish P2 W0 D0 L2
Martin O'Neill P27 W16 D3 L8
Gordon Strachan P18 W8 D3 L7
Tony Mowbray P1 W0 D0 L1

The most striking thing to me is Martin O'Neill's record. Statistically it is better than that of Jock Stein and goes a long way to explaining why O'Neill is held in such high regard with the fans, especially compared to his successor. Gordon Strachan's overall Celtic record is arguably better than O'Neill's and his OF record isn't bad either but once you strip out the cup results O'Neill's SPL record is simply phenomenal - a 65% win rate, far higher than ANY OF manager from either club.

Put it this way. O'Neill won as many OF league matches as every other Celtic manager combined since 1991.

Willie Maley
League P85 W23 D29 L33
Scottish Cup P14 W7 D3 L4

Jimmy McGrory
League P38 W6 D8 L24
Scottish Cup P9 W2 D3 L4
League Cup P17 W7 D1 L9

Jock Stein
League P28 W12 D7 L9
Scottish Cup P9 W4 D2 L3
League Cup P15 W10 D1 L4

Sean Fallon
League P4 W0 D2 L2
League Cup P1 W0 D0 L1

Billy McNeill
League P36 W16 D8 L12
Scottish Cup P4 W4 D0 L0
League Cup P3 W1 D0 L2

David Hay
League P16 W6 D6 L4
League Cup P2 W0 D0 L2

Liam Brady
League P9 W2 D3 L4
Scottish Cup P1 W0 D0 L1
League Cup P1 W0 D0 L1

Lou Macari
League P3 W1 D1 L1

Tommy Burns
League P12 W2 D4 L6
Scottish Cup P2 W1 D0 L1
League Cup P1 W0 D0 L1

Wim Jansen
League P4 W1 D1 L2
Scottish Cup P1 W0 D0 L1

Jozef Venglos
League P4 W1 D2 L1
Scottish Cup P1 W0 D0 L1

John Barnes
League P2 W0 D1 L1

Kenny Dalglish
League P2 W0 D0 L2

Martin O’Neill
League P20 W13 D3 L4
Scottish Cup P3 W2 D0 L1
League Cup P4 W1 D0 L3

Gordon Strachan
League P16 W6 D3 L7
League Cup P2 W2 D0 L0

Tony Mowbray
League P1 W0 D0 L1

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Post by lbb » Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:39 am

scottish wrote:Gordon Strachan's overall Celtic record is arguably better than O'Neill's and his OF record isn't bad either but once you strip out the cup results O'Neill's SPL record is simply phenomenal - a 65% win rate, far higher than ANY OF manager from either club.
That is astonishing. I'm not being funny when I say that in the 1990's Rangers had an unfortunate tendency to sometimes 'relax' in the final OF game, either because they'd won the league or were well in front, and that allowed Celtic to build up some wins in that period when they struggled in the other games. O'Neill was pretty ruthless in that respect. No matter the situation, he always had his team kicking the dressing room door down to play Rangers.

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Post by Scottish » Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:59 am

I shouldn't have said O'Neill's league record was FAR higher than anyone else's. It is the best but Scot Symon at 63% comes pretty close. These two are out on their own for their respective clubs in this fixture. Struth at 53.7% is the closest to Symon while - perhaps surprisingly - Billy McNeill has the second best win rate (44.4%) of the Celtic managers.

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Post by Smith Must Score » Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:29 am

Thanks for that very helpful...cheers.

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Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:12 am

You`ve really got to hand it to Mr.Smith. No matter just how bad his management skills appear to be, he has the press so meek and subservient that it dare not squeak a criticism. After last night`s abject performance almost everything was at fault except the manager. We`ve heard tales of lack of funds, injuries, bad refereeing(eg. no penalty vs. Sevilla) & even opponents too skillful to handle. A free press we might have but a cowed and cringing sports section fearful of being excluded from Ibrox is our lot.Personally, I`m all in favour of the current Edmiston Drive management arrangement staying in perpetuity.

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Post by lbb » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:53 am

The "opponents too skillful to handle" was Scotland against Japan, I'm sure.

A piece of arshlecken in The Herald, of all places, portrays Walter as a hapless victim of circumstances and a cruel owner (who just happens to be his best mate) -

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl ... s-1.927640

Still wittering on about Manchester even though Smith has won just 2 of his last 18 European matches and failed to score in 10 of them.

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Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:50 pm

If not using the actual words, there has been a general notion portrayed in the press & @ post match press meetings that some of these Johnny Foreigners have been guilty of dirty tricks eg. passing accurately, running quickly and kicking the ball hard into Rangers` goal all to the discomfit of the various misfits and charletans wearing royal blue jerseys. Welcome, Rangers, to the life as lived by all the other SPL clubs ie. no money, no good players. Oh, woe is they, what SHALL they do? PS. What HAS Rangers done with all the money they`ve earned from winning leagues & cups over the last 100 odd years AND getting 50,000+ through their gates AND selling millions of pounds of merchandising AND having rich benefactors?

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Post by lbb » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:44 pm

I don't think there's been an overall suggestion that foreign players are somehow being unfair by being technically proficient - as Steven Whittaker bizarrely suggested after Scotland's defeat against Japan.

What there has been is a failure of imagination. A few defeats in Europe and the best idea put forward 'let's just chuck it, go somewhere else for more money and sign lots of players.' Even watching the post-mortem on ITV4 of Celtic's defeat against Hamburg, the best Andy Townsend could volunteer was that Celtic should loan some players on 'big wages'. Yeah, because Roy Keane and Juninho were almighty triumphs.

I'm all for bringing back some razzmatazz to Scottish football but it's clear the idea of getting more out of existing players is becoming an alien concept in Scotland. It's somehow become accepted that Scottish players will be technically inferior to almost everyone outside Scotland and that's just the way it is. Nothing can be done to improve it other than signing lots of foreign players. And moving to another league.

Even the few foreign players willing to come to Scotland - such as Steven Davis or even the hated Lee McCulloch from the Premiership - become, in most cases, much worse players as a result. They start off fit, agile, quick, good technical ability and slowly become lumbering SPL jokes. Maybe there's something in Jock Stein's statement that you can't sustain a world class team in the Scottish League but something else seems to be going on here. We seem to do less of everything that other European countries do.

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Post by exile » Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:19 am

If Scottish clubs start investing in nurturing home-grown talent, the players thus developed won't stay very long. The very second a Scottish player shows some ability, away he goes, and since Bosman then the return on investment is likely to be nil. It's always going to be easier to buy an established player in the global market. Unfortunately the money available determines how good a player you can sign and now the silly money days of the early-to-mid 2000s are over the strategy clearly isn't working - even for the OF. Maybe there will be a rethink.

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