Those Old Firm breakaway plans in full...

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lbb
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Post by lbb » Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:01 am

John Meffen wrote: I support Falkirk, we [like others] have had good players plundered from us, but we have [almost] stolen players from the 'shire, stenhousemuir, whoever, when it felt right.
When the bigger clubs do it, it’s ‘pillage’; when the smaller clubs do it, it’s ‘developing the game, bringing through potential.’ Equally, when the Old Firm sign someone and they fail to make an impact that’s their fault. When they sign someone and they become a better player, the credit should go the club from which he was signed. And so on.

He’s a tosser. I had an email conversation with him a couple of months ago after one of his ‘all refs are corrupt thatcher’ rants (except of course the ex-refs employed by The Sun for their expert analysis). I ended up telling him that the only honourable thing to do (ha!) was to resign from reporting on Scottish football as it was clearly a stinking cesspit of corruption and undeserving the extensive coverage The Sun gives it. He hasn’t bothered. I take it even Sun journalists have mortgages to pay.
scottish wrote:There wasn't a vote. It didn't get that far.
Really? It was that popular.
scottish wrote: I'll say it again. The only time the English Premiership will seriously consider the OF is if the TV money has dried up and crowds are falling. In other words when joining the Premiership is no longer worth the candle.
I agree. In hindsight, we should maybe have used the Heysel ban to suggest some kind of change then. We still had a strong league ourselves and the English were in need of something new, hence the creation of the Premiership. The chance is gone.
the hibLOG wrote:How's about if the Old Firm took a lead if they are so worried about the perilous state of Scottish football? Then presumably the SFA and SPL would follow like the obedient wee pets they are.
There is some merit in that idea. I posted on another forum a while back that perhaps the only option was for Rangers to grab Scottish football by the scruff of the neck and insist on certain standards. Rangers tried to go through the system, particularly under Advocaat, and found the authorities unresponsive to new ideas. And let’s not kid ourselves. If, by some miracle, Rangers did try and take the lead, can you imagine the red-faced munchkins at Pittodrie, or Hearts and Hibs happily going along with it? I can’t. Yes, the Old Firm are a clique but then are there are lots of cliques in Scottish football. Until everyone agrees on a way forward then we’ll be having this conversation every year.

exile
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Post by exile » Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:00 pm

It is actually possible that the Premiership might expand to include teams from other countries. For instance, a Premiership team in Dublin would be a fantastic marketing coup. To do so it might have to break its link with the FA. But as things are I can't see why they'd want too. They have the most successful league in the world, both on the field of play (judging by CL results) and in financial terms. Why fix something that's not broken?

So where SHOULD the OF be heading? There are many clubs who are in much the same position - Anderlecht, FC Copenhagen, Ajax and so on - the big clubs in little leagues. Should they join forces in a single league? If this could be combined with continuing more or less guaranteed entry to the CL, perhaps. Any threat to the latter would render the idea a non-starter.

The best chance of seeing the OF or other Scottish clubs playing English opposition is in a reformed League Cup. But again - as long as the League Cup is a route to Europe for English clubs, it won't happen. And if it isn't, then the English clubs will lose interest and we'll end up with another Anglo Scottish Cup.

I suppose the chance of a British league was lost in effect when the Scottish FA required their members to withdraw from the FA (and thus from FA competitions) in 1887 - ironically enough following a controversial FA Cup semi final involving Rangers!

lbb
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Post by lbb » Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:35 am

The Old Firm won't be going anywhere.

As a society, we're screwed. Take someone like Derek Riordan. Now, arguably, he is the best footballer in the SPL. As a person, though, he's a schemie ned and someone who relishes being a schemie ned and has no other aspiration other than to be a schemie ned all his life. That's the culture you're up against. As a nation, we used to produce great people. Now, we produce neds, scumbags and junkies. The same environments that used to produce great footballers now produce layabouts and criminals. We've lost 'something' as a country and we don't look like getting it back.

Still, it must be the Old Firm's fault. I'd imagine.

Scottish
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Post by Scottish » Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:03 pm

Apart from that last line I thought I was reading a Sunday Post opinion piece from the 1980s. Or the 1970s. Or the 1960s. Or the..... well, you get the picture.

the hibLOG
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Post by the hibLOG » Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:04 pm

lbb wrote:As a society, we're screwed. Take someone like Derek Riordan. Now, arguably, he is the best footballer in the SPL. As a person, though, he's a schemie ned and someone who relishes being a schemie ned and has no other aspiration other than to be a schemie ned all his life. That's the culture you're up against. As a nation, we used to produce great people. Now, we produce neds, scumbags and junkies. The same environments that used to produce great footballers now produce layabouts and criminals. We've lost 'something' as a country and we don't look like getting it back.
Fatalistic. Why not build a model where said talented schemie ned is plucked from his squalid nest at an early age and given an education in clean living and social responsibility, given ambition and aspiration instead of just greed, and is taught into the bargain how to kick a football properly? John Collins may be banging his head on a brick wall when he talks about how football clubs could produce better people out of better footballers but that doesn't mean he should just spare his head.

Anyway, what was so great about the Tongs and the Cumbie in the 30s, or the fine citizens of Scotland in the 1830s who elevated the average adult consumption of whisky to over a pint a week? Aye, everything was always better in the good old days, not just the football.
Fraser

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Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:58 am

It was over a pint a week because the water was undrinkable & beer, whisky & gin were the safest things to drink. Anyway, in those days the average constitution could easily cope.

lbb
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Post by lbb » Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:06 am

the hibLOG wrote:Fatalistic. Why not build a model where said talented schemie ned is plucked from his squalid nest at an early age and given an education in clean living and social responsibility, given ambition and aspiration instead of just greed, and is taught into the bargain how to kick a football properly? John Collins may be banging his head on a brick wall when he talks about how football clubs could produce better people out of better footballers but that doesn't mean he should just spare his head.

Anyway, what was so great about the Tongs and the Cumbie in the 30s, or the fine citizens of Scotland in the 1830s who elevated the average adult consumption of whisky to over a pint a week? Aye, everything was always better in the good old days, not just the football.
Aye, and the Hyde Park Garrotters were, er, rotters too. Just because things were bad once doesn't mean they can't get worse. You're not telling me that Glasgow city centre has always had zombie mutants roaming around the place in the daytime.

Derek Riordan is a 26-year-old man. At some point, he should maybe take control of his own destiny, eh? Does he want to be a top footballer or does he want to be a celebrity in his own wee world and have clowns like Colin Nish get a game ahead of him?

It's not just Riordan. There's a lot of actual footballers and would-be footballers whose careers fall by the wayside because of the Scottish culture of drink, excrement grub and more drink. 'Jim Baxter and Jimmy Johnstone used to drink' - so what? They weren't up against European players training 7 days a week.

Look what happened to Paul Le Guen and John Collins when they suggested to Scottish players that, even if they didn't have the raw talent, they could still work on their fitness by improving their diet and training programme. There was uproar.

There's a really unhealthy culture in Scotland and too many footballers are part of it.

the hibLOG
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Post by the hibLOG » Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:11 am

lbb wrote:Aye, and the Hyde Park Garrotters were, er, rotters too. Just because things were bad once doesn't mean they can't get worse. You're not telling me that Glasgow city centre has always had zombie mutants roaming around the place in the daytime.
Just because they were kept out of sight doesn't mean they weren't there.
Derek Riordan is a 26-year-old man. At some point, he should maybe take control of his own destiny, eh? Does he want to be a top footballer or does he want to be a celebrity in his own wee world and have clowns like Colin Nish get a game ahead of him?

It's not just Riordan. There's a lot of actual footballers and would-be footballers whose careers fall by the wayside because of the Scottish culture of drink, excrement grub and more drink. 'Jim Baxter and Jimmy Johnstone used to drink' - so what? They weren't up against European players training 7 days a week.

Look what happened to Paul Le Guen and John Collins when they suggested to Scottish players that, even if they didn't have the raw talent, they could still work on their fitness by improving their diet and training programme. There was uproar.

There's a really unhealthy culture in Scotland and too many footballers are part of it.
None of which contradicts my basic point. Do you just give up? You might as well shoot most of the Rangers support now then.
Fraser

lbb
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Post by lbb » Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:18 am

the hibLOG wrote:Just because they were kept out of sight doesn't mean they weren't there.
I just assumed that their numbers had increased so much that they were now confident of appearing in public alongside normal people.
the hibLOG wrote:None of which contradicts my basic point. Do you just give up? You might as well shoot most of the Rangers support now then.
Unless the SPL grab control of the education, welfare, social work and medical programmes then I'm not sure there's much they can do about it.

the hibLOG
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Post by the hibLOG » Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:15 pm

lbb wrote:Unless the SPL grab control of the education, welfare, social work and medical programmes then I'm not sure there's much they can do about it.
The starting point of this discussion was that perhaps the clubs - especially the two most powerful clubs - could take a lead. But doing anything beyond the boundaries of their very immediate self-interest is too much to expect, despite their protestations of concern for the Scottish game. You'd think that their continual rejection by foreign leagues would perhaps impel them to consider ways in which they could work cooperatively for the long term good of Scottish football but instead they keep returning to the EPL like dogs to their own vomit.

The other clubs are of course not immune to behaving in their own immediate self interest but often that is driven by the need to protect themselves from the Old Firm's overpowering selfishness.
Fraser

exile
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Post by exile » Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:10 pm

Perhaps the answer is a league consisting of
1. Celtic
2. Rangers
and playing each other every week in venues such as Belfast, Dublin or Boston.

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