CUP UPSETS

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LEATHERSTOCKING
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CUP UPSETS

Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:59 pm

We`ve now had the "usual suspects" of Cup upsets in the press since Saturday - all, as expected, within living memory of the authors. Forgotten, it seems, is Fraserburgh`s 1-0 win @ Dundee in 1959`s 1st Round and to be fair you`d have to be an historian to know that Celtic`s biggest humiliation until Saturday was their 4-2 defeat @ Arthurlie in 1897. Probably the first major upset was Battlefield`s 3-2 win @ 2nd Hampden in 1885`s 3rd Round. Queen`s Park were the holders and seven times winners while Battlefield was little more than the Senior Club`s feeder Xl fielding several players who couldn`t even get a game with the Strollers. I won`t mention Kilmarnock`s recent Cup history but anyone care to indentify their club`s "day of shame" in the Cup?

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Post by HibeeJibee » Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:03 pm

The Scotland on Sunday yesterday also omitted Hibs 2-3 Edinburgh City...

lbb
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Post by lbb » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:01 am

I'm always surprised when they include Hamilton beating Rangers in 1987. It's a strange situation when one Premier League team beating another is deemed one of the greatest upsets of all time.

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Post by Scottish » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:34 am

lbb wrote:I'm always surprised when they include Hamilton beating Rangers in 1987. It's a strange situation when one Premier League team beating another is deemed one of the greatest upsets of all time.
I'd go along with that but I'm afraid it was ever thus. Falkirk's victory at Ibrox in 1913 used to be included in old annuals as a cup shock.

Falkirk finished fifth in the league that year and won the cup.

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Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:35 am

The added piquancy of Hamilton`s win was, while Rangers have only ever lost their opening Cup game of a season 10 times, it was only the 2nd time it had happened in Govan.

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Post by lbb » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:39 pm

I accept that it was surprising but an 'upset'? Hamilton's other results against Rangers that season were 1-2, 0-2, 0-2, 0-2. All tight games. It's like saying West Ham winning at Old Trafford (when Di Canio scored and Barthez tried to claim offside) in the FA Cup just weeks after losing 7-1 there, I think, was an upset. It was probably a surprise to the West Ham fans but that's about it.

I'm not trying to talk down Hamilton's achievements but I'm doubtful that it deserves to be ranked alongside Berwick. Incidentally, I'm sure the Scottish Cup that season ran: Rangers eliminated by Hamilton; Hamilton eliminated by Motherwell; Motherwell eliminated by Hearts; Hearts eliminated by St. Mirren; St. Mirren, er, beat Dundee United. Good old United. Wouldn't be surprised if County beat them.

The Rangers-Hamilton match is just a convenient one for the hacks to balance up their 'cup upsets' roundup - you can't have too many for one side. It's strange how the League Cup is always ignored which means that shocks like Celtic losing to Raith Rovers and Aberdeen losing to Queens Park are ignored even though they were in the cup and they were upsets.

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Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:06 pm

A Cup "upset" MUST be a league side losing to one from at least a division below them or to a "non league" one. Highland League Fraserburgh(away) beating Division One Dundee must be the classic although Division One Celtic losing away to (? league) Arthurlie certainly rivals it. The Hamilton win @ Ibrox is, I quite agree, only a surprise.

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Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:28 pm

I would perhaps qualify that by adding that a 2nd or 3rd Division side losing to a "non league" one might be construed as a surprise too rather than an "upset". Queen`s Park(finished 4th in "B" Division) managed to lose a 4th Round replay @ Hampden to Highland League Buckie in 1954-55. Buckie were a point behind the leaders in that season`s HL when it was abandoned due to the backlog of fixtures still outstanding by mid May(the SFA`s "cut off" date) due to the severe winter. The Spiders have also contrived to lose to Inverness Thistle(away) in 1973 & Spartans(away) in 2006. Also in this "surprises" catagory, I would include the 1-0 away defeat to diddy side Rangers @ 1st Hampden in 1879`s quarter final. This came after scoring 24 goals without reply in 4 ties to get to that stage(including 5-0 vs. 3rd LRV[one of Scottish football`s "Big Four @ the time]). Queen`s beat the Light Blues 5-1 in the following season`s 1st Round.

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Post by MadMac » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:12 am

It's interesting with Dundee United in a Scottish Cup final once again and Jim McLean's record at Hampden (six Scottish Cup Finals, one Scottish Cup Final replay and one League Cup Final, with no wins) comes to mind. Is there any manager with a worse record in that context?

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Post by MadMac » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:20 am

Kilmarnock 1, Celtic 0 - 1978, I believe it was Celtic's first cup loss to a lower division side since before WW II. It was also notable as having occurred after a replay.

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Post by Scottish » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:38 am

Celtic lost to Dundee in 1947 and Dundee United in 1949. Both were B Division sides at the time. In some ways Killie's 1978 win was a bigger upset than last Saturday. They were in roughly the same position in the 1st division then as Ross County are now but were a totally part-time side. Of course the size of Dingwall and the comparative newness of County as a league side means that their triumph will be regarded in the popular mind as the greater upset.

Killie had to play Rangers in the next round less than five days later and one of the more amusing consequences of the win v Celtic was that Rangers had to pulp 50,000 tickets already printed and ready for sale the next morning. Talk about taking things for granted.

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Cup Upsets

Post by Snuff » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:38 am

Ross County beating Celtic an upset - maybe in Scotland.

But put it into English terms - Celtic (the second-best side in the country on league positions) lost to Ross County (the sixteenth-best side on league positions): that's the equivalent of Manchester United losing to West Ham United, which would maybe be an upset, but hardly a shock measuring six on the Richter Scale.

There simply aren't four different levels of football in Scotland and while one would expect Celtic to win the majority of their meetings with Ross County (who are after all also a full-time side), now and again, they'll get bitten.
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Post by lbb » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:40 am

Celtic's wage bill - £38,000,000 (according to Evening Times yesterday)
Ross County's wage bill - £500,000 (according to The Scotsman yesterday)

Man Utd's wage bill - £120,000,000
West Ham's wage bill - £60,000,000

The gulf in resources between Celtic and Ross County is greater, far greater, than that between Manchester United and West Ham.

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Post by HibeeJibee » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:49 pm

Irvine Meadow XI's win over Abroath in the Scottish Cup this season, was also seen as a bit of a "giant-killing" IMO. However this was simply due to Arbroath being an SFL side, and Irvine a Junior. Both are part-time; and if I was to be honest I would expect Irvine (historically over the last decade or so biggest wage-spenders in Junior football?) to beat many SFL sides...

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Post by BMCCOLL » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:14 pm

lbb wrote:Celtic's wage bill - £38,000,000 (according to Evening Times yesterday)
Ross County's wage bill - £500,000 (according to The Scotsman yesterday)

Man Utd's wage bill - £120,000,000
West Ham's wage bill - £60,000,000

The gulf in resources between Celtic and Ross County is greater, far greater, than that between Manchester United and West Ham.
I suppose you could say they are paying good money for old rope! C'mon the Staggies! :lol:

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