CUP UPSETS

The place to discuss Scottish football
Skyline Drifter
Posts: 790
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:34 pm
Location: Dumfries
Contact:

Post by Skyline Drifter » Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:16 am

I think to an extent such debates are coloured by your age (I've no idea what age lbb is though).

I wasn't born when Berwick beat Rangers but would still consider it the ultimate in shocks for me. Perhaps because as I became conscious of football in the couple of decades that followed Berwick remained a perennial struggler in Scotland's bottom level.

For all the listed Celtic defeats, Inverness (twice), Raith, Clyde and indeed Falkirk which wasn't mentioned in the initial list were all good first division outfits. They were also all full time sides. In the 60's Celtic losing to such a level of side wouldn't have been the major shock it became once all the money was in the game and Celtic were importing internationalists right, left and centre.

I will grant you that the Clyde defeat in the context of how Roberts put that side together probably outweighs the others. But for me Berwick beating Rangers outweighs all of them.

lbb
Posts: 1316
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:25 am
Contact:

Post by lbb » Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:20 am

scottish wrote:Not the year they were beaten at Parkhead they didn't. You mean when Martin O'Neill contemptuously sent a reserve side to Inverness and got deservedly beaten for his trouble. It was the Rangers first team that got humped at Berwick who were a far more lowly side than ICT.
A reserve side? Larsson, Lennon, Hartson, Valgaeren, Maloney? They must have had some reserve team at that time.

The nature of football now, with squad rotation, means that very few games will have the 'recognised strongest XI'. You have to take results at face value. The days of the same eleven players playing every week in every competition are over.
scottish wrote:Aye, right.
Really. Not my fault Celtic have had a few defeats to lower league opposition over the last few years.
scottish wrote:No amount of obfuscation can overcome the perception that for most people Berwick is the upset to end all upsets.
I can't agree. I'd say it's worse to lose on ability rather than luck. I'd also throw in Celtic's (sorry!) 4-1 defeat to Partick Thistle in the League Cup Final. To be 4-0 down at HT in a cup final is incredible enough for Celtic but a year after the European Cup Final is sensational. I'm sure this result was, like Berwick, wrongly 'corrected' by the press and BBC, i.e. they thought Celtic had won 4-1.

lbb
Posts: 1316
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:25 am
Contact:

Post by lbb » Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:23 am

MadMac wrote:1986/87 League Cup: Forfar 5, St. Mirren 1. Not so much the victory itself, but the magnitude of it against a very good Paisley side who were regularly qualifying for Europe and went on to take the Scottish that season.
This result reminds me that Fergie's Aberdeen were turned over by Ally MacLeod's Airdrie in the League Cup in this period. Aberdeen were champions, I'm sure. ISTR, Airdrie were 3-0 up or something at one point. They were certainly in the First Division at the time - perhaps lower.

Yes, I'm full of specific detail.

lbb
Posts: 1316
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:25 am
Contact:

Post by lbb » Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:30 am

Skyline Drifter wrote:I think to an extent such debates are coloured by your age (I've no idea what age lbb is though).
Possibly. If I lived through Berwick, I'd probably feel more strongly about it. I accept it'll probably never lose its prominence.

I think you make a fair point that Berwick never really kicked on from this result whereas a lot of Celtic's conquerors in recent years joined the top flight fairly quickly afterwards - with the exception of Clyde.
Skyline Drifter wrote:I will grant you that the Clyde defeat in the context of how Roberts put that side together probably outweighs the others. But for me Berwick beating Rangers outweighs all of them.
No joke but I'd actually forgotten Ross County just last season. Again, not a 'fluke' result - County played well and deserved to win. But a full-time side and one that was nearly promoted to the SPL.

Scottish
Site Admin
Posts: 7665
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:51 pm
Contact:

Post by Scottish » Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:38 am

lbb wrote: A reserve side? Larsson, Lennon, Hartson, Valgaeren, Maloney? They must have had some reserve team at that time.
Only three of the starting line-up for the UEFA Cup Final started in Inverness.

Only three of the Inverness starters had started at Anfield three days earlier.

Eight first team regulars weren't on the field at the kick-off - , it was a reserve side and no amount of selective mentions can alter that
lbb wrote: I'd also throw in Celtic's (sorry!) 4-1 defeat to Partick Thistle in the League Cup Final. To be 4-0 down at HT in a cup final is incredible enough for Celtic but a year after the European Cup Final is sensational. I'm sure this result was, like Berwick, wrongly 'corrected' by the press and BBC, i.e. they thought Celtic had won 4-1.
You don't learn, do you? No Rangers supporter should mention the League Cup Final, Celtic and unexpected gubbings in the same breath.

Not unless they're a big Harry Belafonte fan.

Skyline Drifter
Posts: 790
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:34 pm
Location: Dumfries
Contact:

Post by Skyline Drifter » Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:41 am

lbb wrote:
Skyline Drifter wrote:I think to an extent such debates are coloured by your age (I've no idea what age lbb is though).
Possibly. If I lived through Berwick, I'd probably feel more strongly about it. I accept it'll probably never lose its prominence.

I think you make a fair point that Berwick never really kicked on from this result whereas a lot of Celtic's conquerors in recent years joined the top flight fairly quickly afterwards - with the exception of Clyde.
Skyline Drifter wrote:I will grant you that the Clyde defeat in the context of how Roberts put that side together probably outweighs the others. But for me Berwick beating Rangers outweighs all of them.
No joke but I'd actually forgotten Ross County just last season. Again, not a 'fluke' result - County played well and deserved to win. But a full-time side and one that was nearly promoted to the SPL.
I didn't, directly anyway, make any point about Celtic's conquerors joining the top flight, though it's a fair point that they did. I was merely highlighting that none of them sat remotely as lowly in Scottish football's hierarchy as Berwick did at the time. They were good full time sides. Even Clyde, for all the farce of their assembly.

As are Ross County who I also forgot to note. Though I'd argue with the suggestion that they were anywhere "near" to promotion. They finished FIFTH and no more threatened to win it than we did.

LEATHERSTOCKING
Posts: 1611
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:11 pm
Contact:

Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:28 am

Another involving ra Selatic = Celtic 2, Queen`s Park 3 @ Porkheid 14th May 1985, Glasgow Cup semi final. Queen`s were 3-0 up @ one stage. Even now when it`s an U18 competition, Queen`s haven`t won this hansome trophy since 1945. I am one of the few folk who can boast having seen Queen`s score 3 goals @ Parkhead twice - 1967`s Scottish Cup game & 1985`s Glasgow Cup.

1960sfitbafan
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:08 pm
Contact:

Post by 1960sfitbafan » Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:21 am

Celtic reached a European final the year they lost to Inverness in the Scottish Cup.
Rangers reached the ECWC final the season of the Shieldfield Park debacle.

They might have won it if they had still had a couple of servicable goal scorers on their playing staff when the final was played.

Except that Jim Forrest and George McLean had been made the sacrifical scapegoats for Berwick and permanently dropped after the cup shock.

So they ended up with a makeshift attack with midfield players like Roger Hynd and Alex Smith up front.

If Rangers had won the Cup Winners Cup it would have alleviated the depression of seeing Celtic win every competition they entered that season, including the Champions Cup -compounded by the humiliation at the hands of Sammy Reid.

lbb
Posts: 1316
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:25 am
Contact:

Post by lbb » Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:28 am

1960sfitbafan wrote:Rangers reached the ECWC final the season of the Shieldfield Park debacle.
Yeah, HJ said that which is why I mentioned Celtic getting to the UEFA Cup Final in one of the years they lost to Inverness.
1960sfitbafan wrote:If Rangers had won the Cup Winners Cup it would have alleviated the depression of seeing Celtic win every competition they entered that season, including the Champions Cup -compounded by the humiliation at the hands of Sammy Reid.
It was certainly a bad result for Rangers and many within Ibrox took it badly - not least John Lawrence. It could be argued that Scot Symon's sacking was effectively assured on the day of the Berwick result. However, the fact people within Rangers took it badly does not necessarily it must always be viewed as the worst of all-time.

Scotland beat France 1-0 - shock. Scotland comfortably beat France 3-1 - less of a shock? Perhaps.

Scottish
Site Admin
Posts: 7665
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:51 pm
Contact:

Post by Scottish » Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:10 am

lbb wrote: However, the fact people within Rangers took it badly does not necessarily it must always be viewed as the worst of all-time.
I would be delighted to see a list of what you consider to be Rangers' all-time worst results.

lbb
Posts: 1316
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:25 am
Contact:

Post by lbb » Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:36 am

scottish wrote: I would be delighted to see a list of what you consider to be Rangers' all-time worst results.
Kaunas (1-2) August 2008
Zhizkov (0-2) September 2002
Aberdeen (1-5) January 1985
Chesterfield (0-3) November 1980
Berwick (0-1) January 1967
Celtic (1-mumble, mumble) October 1957

There hasn't been all that many. It probably is between Berwick and the League Cup Final defeat for Rangers' all-time worst result but I was reaching to try and say 'all-time' amongst all Scottish clubs.

bobby s
Posts: 806
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:15 am
Location: Nittingrange
Contact:

Post by bobby s » Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:39 am

Sorry to gate crash but isn't Hibs 8 Rangers 1 worth a mention?
It's the Hope I can't stand

lbb
Posts: 1316
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:25 am
Contact:

Post by lbb » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:31 am

It is. The list was not meant to be a definitive one but rather one that was subjected to the long consideration of one minute.

Scottish
Site Admin
Posts: 7665
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:51 pm
Contact:

Post by Scottish » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:46 pm

lbb wrote:It is. The list was not meant to be a definitive one but rather one that was subjected to the long consideration of one minute.
Take your time. A long and definitive list of Rangers humiliations will be worth reading.

1960sfitbafan
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:08 pm
Contact:

Post by 1960sfitbafan » Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:51 pm

Berwick 1967 was a seismic shock for Rangers and the following 67/68 campaign was another barren season.

They failed to contest either of the two major cup finals - compounded by snatching defeat from the jaws of victory in the last game of the league season when Aberdeen were 2-0 winners at Ibrox, effectively giving Celtic the championship without having to play.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests