Online Archive

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cowdenbeather
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Re: Online Sources

Post by cowdenbeather » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:30 pm

Alan Brown wrote:
Cowdenbeather would you be willing to share your data if an online resource was set up?

I will post a message in the main forum and see how much interest it generated from members
of the forum.

Alan
Not a problem

John Meffen

Re: Online Archive

Post by John Meffen » Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:52 am

Insertnamehere wrote:Is it celtic.net? if so I had a look but couldnt find it? Thats nothing new though! :shock:
I do believe celtic.net is a celtic rug company, i wonder how i would know about that unless the company i was working for made the dreadful mistake, I would have to add that it would have been a different department :roll:

Skyline Drifter
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Re: Online Sources

Post by Skyline Drifter » Tue Oct 05, 2010 8:35 am

There's a loose intention by a small group of us to publish a QoS statistical history in time for the club centenary in 2019. The information is available in the minute books and the club historian has his own copies on loose leaf paper. It shouldn't be extraordinarily difficult to turn it into a publishable format.

bobby s
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Re: Online Archive

Post by bobby s » Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:51 am

Happy to contribute the Hibs element.

Have you thought about the back end database and website? I suspect the time involved, the programming resources required and hosting costs would require sponsorship or a commercial element. I suppose, at this point I envisage a soccerbase.com style website. Although, there was once a website www.scottishfootballrecords.com? anyone know who did that?
It's the Hope I can't stand

Scottish
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Re: Online Archive

Post by Scottish » Tue Oct 05, 2010 1:30 pm

bobby s wrote:Happy to contribute the Hibs element.

Have you thought about the back end database and website? I suspect the time involved, the programming resources required and hosting costs would require sponsorship or a commercial element. I suppose, at this point I envisage a soccerbase.com style website. Although, there was once a website http://www.scottishfootballrecords.com? anyone know who did that?
Stewart Mathers was the name of the guy concerned. I had some correspondence with him when he launched it back in June 2001 but I only ever had a hotmail address for him and it probably isn't active after all this time. There was some link-up with Tony Brown after a while but the site hasn't been around for some time and I have no idea how to get in touch with Stewart.

Alan Brown
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Re: Online Archive

Post by Alan Brown » Tue Oct 05, 2010 2:00 pm

I was thinking more of an online storage database such as the one at Google Docs.
This would allow any members to update information online.

In an ideal world a website with a backend database would be great, but I am not
technical enough to pull off something like that!

Alan

BMCCOLL
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Re: Online Sources

Post by BMCCOLL » Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:47 pm

scottish wrote:
So, if I've understood it correctly, the following information is needed to compile a 'complete record' of the top division. Number before name of club is number of full seasons required.

1890-1900
4 Abercorn 1890-93 + 96-97 -
10 St Mirren 1890-1900
2 Vale of Leven 1890-92
1 Cowlairs 1890-91
3 Renton 1890-94 (including expunged games)
4 Leith Athletic 1891-95
8 Clyde 1891-93 + 94-1900

1920-1939
16 Motherwell 1920-31 & 34-39 (the 'Champions of Scotland' series has 1931-34)
17 Clyde 1920-24 & 26-39
12 Morton 1920-27, 29-33, 37-38
16 Airdrieonians 1920-36
15 Ayr United 1920-25, 28-36, 37-39
19 Hamilton Accies 1920-39
7 Albion Rovers 1920-23, 34-37, 38-39
4 Clydebank (original) 1920-22, 23-24, 25-26
18 St Mirren 1920-35, 36-39
18 Falkirk 1920-35, 36-39
1 Alloa Athletic 1922-23 (+ 39-40?)
10 Cowdenbeath 1924-34 (+39-40?)
5 Dunfermline 1926-28 & 34-37
1 Bo'ness 1927-28
2 Leith Athletic 1930-32
1 East Fife 1930-31
1 East Stirlingshire 1932-33
6 Queen of the South 1933-39
4 Arbroath 1935-39

That's 205 full seasons if I've added up right (ignoring expunged games and uncompleted seasons) or the equivalent of two full club histories from 1900-date to give some idea of the scale. There is also the question as to whether it is best to tackle this on a season-by-season basis or club-by-club. Building an online database will be an even bigger task as much of the existing information on those clubs which do have print records is not available online and would have to be transcribed from books. That brings copyright issues into play.
Alright, if no one minds, I'll tackle Clyde's seasons in the 1890s.
http://scottish-football-historical-archive.co.nf

John Meffen

Re: Online Archive

Post by John Meffen » Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:48 pm

google docs is a good idea, but the logistics of having too many people registered for an account might be a problem, in order to have editorial rights it could get problematic

I don't know, you can make several e-mail adresses linked to one google account, but I don't know how it would work

BMCCOLL
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Re: Online Archive

Post by BMCCOLL » Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:54 pm

I agree with John regarding access. I think It'd probably be better if someone collated the material at a central point and posted the files via this forum... if David's in agreeance of course!
http://scottish-football-historical-archive.co.nf

Alan Brown
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Re: Online Archive

Post by Alan Brown » Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:03 pm

I have some webspace set up where the spreadsheet files could be "stored" and accessed from.
Once it is established who is willing to help out with the project, a decision would need to be made
as to whether anyone can view the files or just those who have contributed. This would also help
to avoid anyone coming along to nick our work!

Alan

Scottish
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Re: Online Archive

Post by Scottish » Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:31 pm

I'm happy to have files uploaded here either generally or restricted to those involved, as people wish. Or to store via Alan's webspace. To me the most important thing is to get it done. I can see the value of restricting access in the early stages to prevent some pre-emptive publication but in the long run surely we are compiling a record from public sources and must make it available to the general public one way or another? Either by selling disks or urls or freely but that's an argument for another day. Though having tried - successfully for a while - to sell historical material on disk, I have to say I think that time has passed. However I do think it important that others do not profit out of our endeavours and by that I mean our friends in the sporting press who have been known to "accidentally" lift material wholesale from this site and, I'm sure, from others too.

This is where the lack of an organised Scottish football historians organisation is felt keenly.

Sat31March1928
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Re: Online Archive

Post by Sat31March1928 » Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:57 am

Over the summer I've been compiling every Competitive Opposition lineup vs Hearts from 1946 onwards.

Where possible I've used the names on John Lister's disc as the 'unique reference' for each player. I used a combination of Surname and the season to Identify uniquely each player. There were some anomalies where players weren't recorded on John's disc for a particular season or where 2 or more players with the same surname played for a club that season.

I've got the details of every Scottish game played so it would be relatively straight forward to create a file for every competitive game by team and season. With the help of David I've augmented that with the attendance details, fixed wrong dates etc.

Database design is what I do as a 'day job' so I can help on designing what data we need to capture.

This needs to be built up by agreeing a common set of 'standards' around what we capture and any 'codified' values.

E.g.
For each 'club' how do we 'uniquely' name them and what do we do about the ones that have changed name, reincarnate as something else?

I think the easiest way would be to agree on a common format for each set of files we want to capture.

I can post some thoughts on here of file formats.

I also can load the data into a database which then allows anomalies to be identified e.g. a player playing for 2 clubs on the same date, a scorer who wasn't in any of the two teams playing.

Also I can publish results on www.londonhearts.com behind a 'secure' area so that it can only be accessed by a username and password.

I'll post up some thoughts on how we structure the files later.
Jackson; James; Jackson; James; Jackson

Sat31March1928
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Re: Online Archive

Post by Sat31March1928 » Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:59 am

As to 'profit' a medium term goal would be to create a 'web' app where the data could be accessed for a modest fee.
Jackson; James; Jackson; James; Jackson

Sat31March1928
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Re: Online Archive

Post by Sat31March1928 » Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:00 am

Alan Brown wrote:I have some webspace set up where the spreadsheet files could be "stored" and accessed from.
Once it is established who is willing to help out with the project, a decision would need to be made
as to whether anyone can view the files or just those who have contributed. This would also help
to avoid anyone coming along to nick our work!

Alan
I think it should be 'secure'.
Jackson; James; Jackson; James; Jackson

Alan Brown
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Re: Online Archive

Post by Alan Brown » Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:48 am

David, if you have the technical know how to get this project online then that would be great.
I agree with what you said about the data being 'secure', and I feel that initially the data
should only be accessed by those carrying out the research. The 'web app' idea is one that
should be considered as well.

Alan

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