Online Archive

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Alan Brown
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Re: Online Archive

Post by Alan Brown » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:49 am

Just an update on who is doing what so far to avoid any duplication.

I have researched 1900-1920 so no work needs to be done there, although most of it is still on
paper and needs to be digitised.

Abercorn ALAN BROWN
Aberdeen BOOK
Airdrieonians
Albion Rovers
Alloa Athletic DAVID ROSS
Arbroath
Ayr United
Bo'ness THOMAS McGOURAN
Cambuslang DAVID ROSS
Celtic BOOK
Clyde BRIAN McCOLL
Clydebank ALAN BROWN
Cowdenbeath "COWDENBEATHER"
Cowlairs ALAN BROWN
Dumbarton BOOK
Dundee BOOK
Dundee United BOOK
Dunfermline Athletic THOMAS McGOURAN
East Fife ALAN BROWN
East Stirling
Falkirk JOHN MEFFEN
Hamilton Academical BOOK
Heart of Midlothian LONDON HEARTS WEBSITE
Hibernian BOBBY SINNETT
Kilmarnock BOOK
Leith Athletic
Morton
Motherwell
Partick Thistle BOOK
Port Glasgow Athletic ALAN BROWN
Queen of the South
Queen's Park BOOK
Raith Rovers BOOK
Rangers BOOK
Renton
St Bernard's BOOK
St Johnstone BOOK
St Mirren
Third Lanark ALAN BROWN
Vale of Leven

Although 13 clubs have had a complete record book, it doesn't mean we will be taking the stats
from the books. Permission would have to be sought from the authors for that.

Alan

StAndrewsHMFC
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Re: Online Sources

Post by StAndrewsHMFC » Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:20 pm

I've always intended to look into Leith Athletics history, but never got round to it. If noone objects it I'm happy to take on Leith Athletics top flight seasons

BMCCOLL
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Re: Online Archive

Post by BMCCOLL » Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:15 pm

David, is there a way to 'merge' the two discussions on this project?
http://scottish-football-historical-archive.co.nf

Alan Brown
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Re: Online Sources

Post by Alan Brown » Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:46 pm

That would be great if you could do the Leith Athletic research.

They were in division one during the following seasons:
1891/92, 1892/93, 1893/94, 1894/95, 1930/31, 1931/32

Can everyone please post any future messages regarding this on the "Online Archive" post
in "Scottish Football".

Alan

BMCCOLL
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Re: Online Archive

Post by BMCCOLL » Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:46 pm

As to how we actully compile the stats, do we agree to use THIS format?
http://scottish-football-historical-archive.co.nf

Alan Brown
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Re: Online Archive

Post by Alan Brown » Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:13 pm

All my stats have the following format Brian:

match number, date, opponents, halt time, results, goalscorers, attendance, line up, referee.

The date is across 2 columns, the first one being the month the other being the actual date of that month eg.
Aug 24

Hope that helps.

Scottish
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Re: Online Archive

Post by Scottish » Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:06 pm

Sat31March1928 wrote:As to 'profit' a medium term goal would be to create a 'web' app where the data could be accessed for a modest fee.
Or even published - if technically possible - via Kindle which is basically pdf. There might be problems with file conversions. I've had problems in the past with this. But it is a growing market and will grow even more in the years to come. Right now I'm outselling Neil Lennon & Lou Macari in the USA, which is not as great as it might seem at first sight (though to outsell Chris Kamara is, as the man himself would say, 'unbelievable') as there are fewer than 200 Kindle books in Amazon's soccer section but it makes me feel good at any rate and it would never be possible for any self-published effort to outsell well-funded, publicised hardback football books with 'star' names via the dead tree press.

Scottish
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Re: Online Archive

Post by Scottish » Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:24 pm

BMCCOLL wrote:David, is there a way to 'merge' the two discussions on this project?
Ask and ye shall receive. Everything after Sep 29th from the 'Online Sources' in SFAQS has now been moved here and I've made this a 'sticky.'

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Re: Online Archive

Post by Scottish » Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:31 pm

Alan Brown wrote:
Although 13 clubs have had a complete record book, it doesn't mean we will be taking the stats
from the books. Permission would have to be sought from the authors for that.

Alan
Well, I'm happy to give mine for Killie. More generally as you pointed out earlier Alan, your research is original. John Litster made this point with the launch of his initial disk about original research. Statistical records are compiled from publicly available sources so there is nothing to stop the same thing being done twice or more - FFS look at the number of Man U books with 'complete records'. However, unless permission is received then it means some poor soul is going to have to duplicate work done in the past. Some authors will withhold copyright and in other cases consent will be difficult to get (Partick Thistle, for instance, has six different authors and a publisher who likes to claim the author's work as his own).

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Re: Online Archive

Post by Scottish » Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:42 pm

BMCCOLL wrote:As to how we actully compile the stats, do we agree to use THIS format?

That's a variation on the London Hearts format which IIRC was Home Team, Home Goals, Away Goals, Away Team, Crowd, Division, Day, Month, Year.

I've added in half-times & scorers and in the Alloa file substituted league position for division (if they are all Dv 1 then that's superfluous) and where appropriate would add manager as I have on my own files which have all the basic information (i.e. sans HT, scorers, league position) and are updated after each match.

In this instance and with different people working on different clubs, perhaps using different methods I'd be happy to take advice/instruction from Davy Allan who is much more competent at this kind of thing than certainly I am and I suspect most of the rest of us too. If there are loads of files done differently (and having seen some of Alan's WW1 material (seasonal not club based), I know there are some differences there, I'm sure Davy will be able to find a seamless way to merge in the data appropriately.

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Re: Online Archive

Post by Scottish » Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:44 pm

Sat31March1928 wrote:Over the summer I've been compiling every Competitive Opposition lineup vs Hearts from 1946 onwards.

Where possible I've used the names on John Lister's disc as the 'unique reference' for each player. I used a combination of Surname and the season to Identify uniquely each player. There were some anomalies where players weren't recorded on John's disc for a particular season or where 2 or more players with the same surname played for a club that season.

I've got the details of every Scottish game played so it would be relatively straight forward to create a file for every competitive game by team and season. With the help of David I've augmented that with the attendance details, fixed wrong dates etc.

Database design is what I do as a 'day job' so I can help on designing what data we need to capture.

This needs to be built up by agreeing a common set of 'standards' around what we capture and any 'codified' values.

E.g.
For each 'club' how do we 'uniquely' name them and what do we do about the ones that have changed name, reincarnate as something else?

I think the easiest way would be to agree on a common format for each set of files we want to capture.

I can post some thoughts on here of file formats.

I also can load the data into a database which then allows anomalies to be identified e.g. a player playing for 2 clubs on the same date, a scorer who wasn't in any of the two teams playing.

Also I can publish results on http://www.londonhearts.com behind a 'secure' area so that it can only be accessed by a username and password.

I'll post up some thoughts on how we structure the files later.
When it comes to this kind of thing you are undoubtedly, as I heard some of the coarser shouts echo around South Wales over the weekend, 'Da Man.'

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Re: Online Archive

Post by Scottish » Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:56 pm

I should add that in connection with my post about the file format/lay-out that I have the following information on file for every club:

Home team, home goals, away goals, crowd,division, day, month, year, manager (if applicable)

Anyone wanting the relevant info for the club they are researching should e-mail me direct and I'll send via return e-mail. I won't post the full e-mail address here as it only gets picked up by spambots but either webmaster or david at the site address will reach me.

That should save having to look up dates and results.

Alan Brown
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Re: Online Archive

Post by Alan Brown » Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:45 pm

I didn't give a lot of thought to how the file formats would differ, but I suppose it is an important thing to consider
if the data is to be used in a backend database. We should get confirmation from Davy Allan which format the
data should be in for hosting on londonhearts.

David, the format of your data is not that different from londonhearts. Also thanks for permission to use the
Kilmarnock stats from your book. That will save a chunk of time.

Alan

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Re: Online Archive

Post by Scottish » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:30 am

Alan Brown wrote: David, the format of your data is not that different from londonhearts. Also thanks for permission to use the
Kilmarnock stats from your book. That will save a chunk of time.

Alan
We've been exchanging information for some time and Davy's format is much better than mine. In my ignorance I used to put all the information into a single cell and extend the cell's visibility.

Which Killie book are you using? The 2001 edition has some updates on the pre-war era that the 1994 one doesn't have. In addition Richard Cairns provided a further update in 2006 the reason for which was to bring the seasonal info up to date but in the process of doing so uncovered some pre-war errors as follows:

18/4/1931 v Morton Maxwell scored two goals, not one
11/01/1913 A Cunningham scored two goals, not one
15/08/1909, 19/08/1909, 22/8/1909, 28/11/1909 inclusive. Goalscorer shown as D Armour should be A Armour

None of the above affects any seasonal or career totals.

Additionally I have the following exact attendance figures for the 1930s, supplied by Killie historian John Livingston, Hearts historian David Speed and myself from the Hampden gate book which don't appear in either book.

1931-32
Hearts A 22,603

1932-33
Hearts A 14,330

1933-34
St Mirren H 6,754
Airdrie H 5,352
Motherwell H 16,691
Rangers H 14,252
Hamilton H 5,101
Hearts H 6,471
Falkirk H 2,591
Partick H 3,850
Ayr H 15,022
Hibs H 4,122
Clyde H 2,520
Dundee H 3,049
St Johnstone H 3,389
Hearts A 3,617

1934-35
Hearts A 19,132
Queen's Park A 5,849

1935-36
Hearts A 5,292
Queen's Park A 5,149

1936-37
Hearts A 8,495
Queen's Park A 8,811

1937-38
Falkirk H 12,029
St Johnstone H 7,113
Dundee H 5,257
Hearts H 13,580
Queen's Park A 9,516
Clyde H 10,375
Rangers H 20,969
Arbroath H 7,361
Hamilton H 7,114
Morton H 9,394
Hearts A 9,604

1938-39
Hearts A 16,637
Queen's Park A 13,582

John Meffen

Re: Online Archive

Post by John Meffen » Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:13 am

And of course I use my own format which is slightly different again, so it will take time to convert stuff

Here is a random season Falkirk 1907/08 using google docs, it doesn't look so great because in open office I have the players' names aligned vertically,

'fraid when i did most of it, I omitted crowds and half-times :oops:

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