Early Scotland internationalists - new details

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Re: Early Scotland internationalists - new details

Postby Bristol Rovers » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:47 am

Does anyone have an accurate date of death (1977, I think, in Glasgow) for Robert McKay, the Scottish cap born 2 Sept 1900?
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Re: Early Scotland internationalists - new details

Postby qpsnapper » Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:25 pm

ScottishFA wrote:Perhaps a first step towards a new Who's Who is for me to list the players for whom I have no clues at all for birth or death information, and in a few cases not even a first name. If anyone can provide some clues to these people, such as an address, an obituary, or a middle name, it would be appreciated. Here goes, in alphabetical order:

Anyone not on this list, I either have their dates or some information that should be sufficient to work them out. Happy to share.

I was looking at the Queen's Park collection in the Scottish Football Museum last year and there was some minute books from the early days detailing the expenses paid and the addresses of some of the players.

I was more interested in the Hampden Gate Books at the time, so although I took a note of some of the addresses none of them are ones you are looking for unfortunately.

I'm now trying uncover the full names/dates of birth/death for QP players, have been to Register House and was reasonably successful in tracking down DoB for players with unusual names or a string of initials just using the register of births, intending to go back next month and use the census returns and death records as well.

If anything I can uncover is of any help I'd be happy to pass it on.
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Re: Early Scotland internationalists - new details

Postby ScottishFA » Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:26 pm

Bristol Rovers wrote:Does anyone have an accurate date of death (1977, I think, in Glasgow) for Robert McKay, the Scottish cap born 2 Sept 1900?


He died 24 May 1977.
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Re: Early Scotland internationalists - new details

Postby cowdenbeather » Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:25 pm

ScottishFA wrote:
cowdenbeather wrote:'e.g. James Ellis of Mossend Swifts wasn't capped it was his brother Dave.


What's the background to that? I have to say it is difficult to work it out:

When the SFA announced the team to play Ireland on 17 March 1892, it simply said Ellis (Mossend Swifts), and so did the match reports I've seen.

The SFA registration books show that Mossend had three players called Ellis around that time: James, David and Alexander.

David played for Hearts in 1891/92, including the week before the international v Ireland when 'Ellis (Mossend Swifts)' was capped, which would indicate that it was not David. However, he didn't play for Hearts on the day of the international.

Lamming, confusingly, says that it was James Ellis played for Hearts.

The SFA annual for 1892/93, and all subsequent records, say the cap went to to J. Ellis.

That's all I've got to go on.

I'd have to find my old records which are somewhere up in the loft. They include obituaries from the local press for all 5 Ellis brothers - Dave, Jim, Alex, Willie and Richard as I recollect.
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Re: Early Scotland internationalists - new details

Postby LLD » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:55 pm

ScottishFA wrote:Talking of Mossend Swifts, their other international was Robert Boyd with two caps. Thanks to a genealogical message board I've been in touch with a descendant who kindly provided me with his dates:

Born 2 July 1867 in Whifflet, died 11 August 1930 in West Calder.

His grave is also online: http://www.gravestonephotos.com/public/gravedetails.php?grave=209488


Obituaries of Boyd and James Ellis were published in the Midlothian Advertiser following their deaths, West Calder being in Midlothian at the time.

Boyd's was published on 15/08/1930 and indicated that he died at 45 Front Street in Mossend after a short illness, he was described as "well known and highly respected".

Ellis' died at Champion, Alberta, Canada on 16/04/1939, "in his 72nd year". It states he took up farming after emigrating to Canada and that he was the last survivor of the Mossend Swifts team which won the East of Scotland Shield. The obituary was published 21/04/1939.
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Re: Early Scotland internationalists - new details

Postby Bristol Rovers » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:15 am

ScottishFA wrote:
Bristol Rovers wrote:Does anyone have an accurate date of death (1977, I think, in Glasgow) for Robert McKay, the Scottish cap born 2 Sept 1900?


He died 24 May 1977.

Thank you.
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Re: Early Scotland internationalists - new details

Postby ScottishFA » Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:12 pm

Some more dates:

Andrew Smellie Anderson (NB middle name) (Hearts, 23 caps): born 21 February 1909 in Airdrie, died 18 August 1991 in Airdrie.

Peter Andrews (Eastern, Sheffield Heeley; capped 1875): born 10 November 1845 in Glasgow, died 24 July 1916 in Paisley.

Robert Bruce (Aberdeen, Middlesbrough, Sheffield Wednesday, Ipswich Town; capped 1933): born 20 (not 29) January 1905 in Paisley, died 6 April 1978 in Elderslie.

James Gillespie (Morton, Sunderland, Third Lanark; capped 1898): born 22 March 1868 in Glasgow, died 5 August 1932 in Glasgow.

Alexander William Hamilton (Dundee; 24 caps): born 5 May 1939 in Armadale (various other dates in circulation), died 24 July 1993 in Dundee.

James Hepburn (Alloa, capped 1891): born 18 January 1865 in Cleish, died 2 August 1925 in Alloa.
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Re: Early Scotland internationalists - new details

Postby John Meffen » Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:59 pm

William Watson (Falkirk)

Falkirk pinched him from the 'shire, who had pinched him from Dykehead. In a Falkirk Herald article about ES's Qualifying Cup final appearance in 1897, is stated he was from Shotts.
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Re: Early Scotland internationalists - new details

Postby cowdenbeather » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:16 pm

Many sources seem to have Andy Herd of Hearts, East Fife, Dunfermline born at Torryburn, Fife in 1902. I knew that his father David played for Lochgelly United and Dunfermline plus worked in the pit at Bowhill in Fife for over 50 years. I wondered therefore why Andy was born in Torryburn - his brother Alex Herd of Manchester City was born on 8th November 1911 at Bowhill (16 19th Street, Auchterderran to be exact). Turns out though that Andy was actually born at the Jamphlars, Auchterderran on October 4th 1903.
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Re: Early Scotland internationalists - new details

Postby ScottishFA » Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:05 pm

ScottishFA wrote:W Lamont (Pilgrims)


I've been making good progress with this list, but was particularly pleased to solve the Lamont mystery - he was William. I found an obituary in the Scotsman in March 1938, which also revealed his son Alfred was a footballer in the 1920s with Alloa, Clackmannan and Third Lanark.
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Re: Early Scotland internationalists - new details

Postby EllisSwifts » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:46 am

Regarding the question of whether it was David or James Ellis who represented Scotland against Ireland on 17th March 1892, I don't have the answer but can maybe add a little more detail. My great grandmother was the sister of Alexander, David, James, Richard and William Ellis who all played for Mossend Swifts.
I have a copy of 2007 letter from the Hearts archivist to a grandson of Alexander Ellis. The letter relates to David Ellis and states that "David Ellis joined Hearts from Mossend Swifts in January 1892 and that season he played three league matches, scoring two goals and two friendly matches scoring four goals."
David Ellis's obituary in the West Lothian Courier 9th February 1940 states he "was capped playing against Ireland in 1892".
James Ellis's obituary in the Midlothian Advertiser 21st April 1939 has no mention of him representing Scotland.
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Re: Early Scotland internationalists - new details

Postby ScottishFA » Wed May 08, 2013 8:06 am

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Re: Early Scotland internationalists - new details

Postby ScottishFA » Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:54 pm

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Re: Early Scotland internationalists - new details

Postby sureitsza » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:06 am

ScottishFA, re your John Rae article above,
Please excuse me but I am no expert on this subject but I have note of him having two Scotland caps. A v Wales in 1889, H v Ireland in 1900.
My source was here; http://eu-football.info/_player.php?id=17289
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