Early Scotland internationalists - new details

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Re: Early Scotland internationalists - new details

Postby ScottishFA » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:31 am

You're absolutely right, thanks. Blog changed!

(Second cap was 1890, though).

By the way, eufootball have him as James, which is wrong.
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Re: Early Scotland internationalists - new details

Postby ScottishFA » Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:49 pm

EllisSwifts wrote:Regarding the question of whether it was David or James Ellis who represented Scotland against Ireland on 17th March 1892, I don't have the answer but can maybe add a little more detail. My great grandmother was the sister of Alexander, David, James, Richard and William Ellis who all played for Mossend Swifts.
I have a copy of 2007 letter from the Hearts archivist to a grandson of Alexander Ellis. The letter relates to David Ellis and states that "David Ellis joined Hearts from Mossend Swifts in January 1892 and that season he played three league matches, scoring two goals and two friendly matches scoring four goals."
David Ellis's obituary in the West Lothian Courier 9th February 1940 states he "was capped playing against Ireland in 1892".
James Ellis's obituary in the Midlothian Advertiser 21st April 1939 has no mention of him representing Scotland.


Returning to this thread after a long time, an update on the Ellis conundrum. I was browsing through copies of Scottish Sport for 1892, and they consistently refer to the internationalist as D Ellis. They also remark that the internationalist owed his place in the international trial to the fine game he played for Hearts v Dumbarton at New Year (which was also D Ellis). So given this, plus the previous contributions, the fact he was a centre forward, and his obituary, I think it is safe to conclude that the man who was capped by Scotland was David Ellis, not his brother James.

For the record, their dates are:
David Thomson Ellis, born 10 April 1869 in West Calder, died 29 January 1940 in Edinburgh.
James Ellis, born 27 May 1867 in Bathgate, died 16 April 1939 in Champion, Alberta.

As a final curiosity, David Ellis also played one match for Celtic, as a guest in their friendly v Nottingham Forest on Monday 4 April 1892.
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Re: Early Scotland internationalists - new details

Postby Partick Thistle » Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:26 pm

ScottishFA wrote:Perhaps a first step towards a new Who's Who is for me to list the players for whom I have no clues at all for birth or death information, and in a few cases not even a first name. If anyone can provide some clues to these people, such as an address, an obituary, or a middle name, it would be appreciated. Here goes, in alphabetical order:
William McIntosh (Third Lanark, Partick Thistle)

Compliments on your continuing success with this task, Andy. And to Gabe too for keeping the impressive resource at RSSSF in line with findings.

Re McIntosh above,

John Litster's disc tells that this player had spells with King's Park, East Stirling, Third Lanark and Vale of Leven.

On that disc, the line that says he was a Partick Thistle player at the time of playing for Scotland is obviously a mistake. Any random check on match reports leading up to his March 1905 cap reveals he's in place at Third Lanark as he should be.

His Wikipedia page states that he played for Third Lanark and Partick Thistle; where does this Thistle connection come from I wonder? I'm guessing it's from the Who's Who book that you're quoting.

I've never spotted him with Thistle in any contemporary first or reserve team match reports or indeed, any other commentaries.

Would be interested to hear from anyone who can positively link William McIntosh to Partick Thistle; I'd be amazed if it were found to be true.
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Re: Early Scotland internationalists - new details

Postby ScottishFA » Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:20 pm

Things have certainly moved on since I wrote my list of 'unknowns', in fact I have now pinned down every one of them.

I agree that McIntosh didn't play for Thistle, it is one of many discrepancies which came out of Doug Lamming's book (he says McIntosh left Third Lanark for Partick Thistle in 1905).

These are his dates:
William Forbes McIntosh
King’s Park, East Stirlingshire, Third Lanark 1901-10, Vale of Leven 1910-11
Born Cowane Street, Stirling, 2 January 1879 to Alexander McIntosh and Janet Ritchie
Died Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, 15 January 1973

There are photos of him on a family website: http://www.emcintosh.com/indexGallery.htm
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Re: Early Scotland internationalists - new details

Postby Partick Thistle » Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:27 pm

Great stuff.

I think I said it before on another thread, but I'll say it again - it's a monumental achievement dotting all those i's and crossing all those t's, 1872 to date.

I look forward to the definitive A to Z being published ; - )
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Re: Early Scotland internationalists - new details

Postby bluedragon » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:05 am

I had a search to see if this had come up before, could not see anything and so decided to post on this thread.

I have come across two different dates of birth quoted for Andy Cunningham – 30 January 1890 and 30 January 1891. However, I believe that the correct date is neither of these but 31 January 1891.

I have found the Birth Certificate for Andrew Cunningham born at Titchfield Street Galston to William and Agnes Cunningham on 31 January 1891.

In some records he has the middle name of Nesbit. However, Andrew Nesbit Cunningham was born in Glasgow in on 7 March 1890.
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Re: Early Scotland internationalists - new details

Postby ScottishFA » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:22 am

Yes, spot on. Born 31 January 1891, with no middle name.
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Re: Early Scotland internationalists - new details

Postby Vasco » Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:36 am

Interesting that, in the week of the death of Arnold Clark, the name Andy Cunningham should crop up, as I met him a couple of times when I worked for Arnold in my last couple of years at school and first couple at university. The word gentleman describes him accurately.
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Re: Early Scotland internationalists - new details

Postby EastJunior » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:07 am

ScottishFA wrote:Returning to this thread after a long time, an update on the Ellis conundrum. I was browsing through copies of Scottish Sport for 1892, and they consistently refer to the internationalist as D Ellis. They also remark that the internationalist owed his place in the international trial to the fine game he played for Hearts v Dumbarton at New Year (which was also D Ellis). So given this, plus the previous contributions, the fact he was a centre forward, and his obituary, I think it is safe to conclude that the man who was capped by Scotland was David Ellis, not his brother James.

For the record, their dates are:
David Thomson Ellis, born 10 April 1869 in West Calder, died 29 January 1940 in Edinburgh.
James Ellis, born 27 May 1867 in Bathgate, died 16 April 1939 in Champion, Alberta.

As a final curiosity, David Ellis also played one match for Celtic, as a guest in their friendly v Nottingham Forest on Monday 4 April 1892.


As a brief aside to this, Mossend Swifts ground - or at least the area where is was - still exists. Indeed West Calder United used it briefly towards the end of the 1960's whilst Burngrange Park was being renovated, Burngrange Park was built over in recent years with the club moving to a new ground at Hermand Park.

Mossend Park was returned to farmland probably sometime after West Calder Utd vacated (there is a picture of it around this time in the book "West Lothian Scottish Cup History" by Gus Martin. The pavilion was demolished and fencing removed.

However, it looks like that the area has been zoned for housing and it will sadly disappear forever.
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Re: Early Scotland internationalists - new details

Postby LEATHERSTOCKING » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:00 pm

Not a new internationalist per se but a reclassification of an 1880s player. John Macdonald was "capped" vs. England in 1886 and is normally assigned to Queen`s Park as his club. Macdonald may have retained his membership there but his only known appearance in black & white hoops that season(1885-86) was vs. St.Peters in the Scottish Cup on 29th August 1885; thereafter all his football came with Edinburgh University or in one representative game for Edinburgh(vs. Glasgow). He even played for the University two days before his game against England. His affiliation should, therefore, read,"EDINBURGH UNIVERSITY & QUEEN`S PARK". It`s in similar vein to the brothers Smith of 1872-73 season who should both read,"SOUTH NORWOOD & QUEEN`S PARK" rather than just "QUEEN`S PARK" but, in those preregistration days with players turning out for whoever asked them sometimes different clubs on several successive Saturdays, where do you stop?
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Re: Early Scotland internationalists - new details

Postby EastJunior » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:44 pm

cowdenbeather wrote:Many sources seem to have Andy Herd of Hearts, East Fife, Dunfermline born at Torryburn, Fife in 1902. I knew that his father David played for Lochgelly United and Dunfermline plus worked in the pit at Bowhill in Fife for over 50 years. I wondered therefore why Andy was born in Torryburn - his brother Alex Herd of Manchester City was born on 8th November 1911 at Bowhill (16 19th Street, Auchterderran to be exact). Turns out though that Andy was actually born at the Jamphlars, Auchterderran on October 4th 1903.


On the subject on Andy Herd, I recently found out that upon his migration to Australia (some sources put this in 1939, others 1946), that he played for an Australian XI v South Africa in Adelaide in April 1947 and became the oldest player to represent Australia at the age of 44. He coached and played in Melbourne well into his 40’s.
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Re: Early Scotland internationalists - new details

Postby bluedragon » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:32 pm

EastJunior wrote:
On the subject on Andy Herd, I recently found out that upon his migration to Australia (some sources put this in 1939, others 1946), that he played for an Australian XI v South Africa in Adelaide in April 1947 and became the oldest player to represent Australia at the age of 44. He coached and played in Melbourne well into his 40’s.


I believe that Andy, his wife and two daughters emigrated to Melbourne, Australia in 1946. However, his two sons had been evacuated to Australia six years earlier and went to stay with his brother David who had a farm at Wonthaggi (sixty miles from Melbourne). That may account for the different dates quoted. Prior to going out Andy had been in touch with clubs in Australia concerning coaching positions. In Australia he coached the Victoria State team. In August 1949 the team surprisingly held the Yugoslavian national team to a 3:3 draw after the tourists had already beaten the Australian National side in the two Test matches held prior to the match.
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