Scottish Alliance

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Scottish Alliance

Postby Partick Thistle » Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:59 pm

Looking to create perfect tables for this League for its inaugural season, 1891-92 and then again for season 1892-93. Preferably, with home and away break downs together with the full report.

Brian McColl has broke the ground with this work...
http://scottish-football-historical-arc ... iance1.htm

Taking Brian's table for 1891-92 I can see that it is arithmetically viable - W110 D44 L110 for 132 games, For 779 Against 779, and a grand total of 264 points for 132 games.

However, the results in the grid, if applied, would give different totals for just about every team. Of the 7 teams with a complete grid, only St Bernard's would check out with the published table.

So, has anyone else tackled this yet?

If not, anyone fancy having a go with me?
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Alan McCabe » Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:02 pm

The 1891-92 AFS Annual has the full results grids for both the Alliance & Federation leagues.
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Partick Thistle » Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:06 pm

Thanks Alan. Is there a convenient and cheap way for me to get my eyes on that?

Alternatively, if anyone else has access, could they be encouraged to take ten minutes out to do a cross grid health check?

I'm encouraged that the grid from s-f-h-a is completely perfect in date and score for the 20 Partick Thistle games that it has listed (as verified by me via the Scotsman and Herald reports).

If the missing four from the 1891-92 s-f-h-a grid could be filled in it would enable us/me to take a step forward and compare the published table with the grid table.

Anyone?

Morton ? Linthouse ? (date ?)

Port Glasgow Athletic ? King's Park ? (date ?)

Port Glasgow Athletic 2 Partick Thistle 2 (23rd January 1892)
as per Thistle history book, confirmed via Glasgow Herald

Glasgow Thistle 3 Partick Thistle 2 (27th February 1892)
as per Thistle history book, but can't find a back up press report. The Herald reports that Partick Thistle Swifts played Thistle at Inchview that day but, strangely, no mention of the first eleven having played. Could do with press confirmation on this game as Thistle history book has erred twice with Alliance results from this season.
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby ScottishFA » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:38 pm

According to the AFS annual, the games you are missing read as follows:

Morton 5 Linthouse 3 on 27 Feb 1892
Port Glasgow Athletic 4 King's Park 1 on 30 April 1892

According to AFS, Glasgow Thistle v Partick was on 27 Feb but the result was 2-2 - this result is published in the Aberdeen Journal and the Evening Express, which are both on BNA.

I've done a quick comparison between the two grids, and have the following variations
Ayr v Airdrie: AFS 2-1, SFHA 3-2 (both say 19 March)
Ayr v Morton: AFS 4-3 on 23 Jan, SFHA 5-3 on 13 Feb
East Stirling v Kings Park: AFS 3-2 on 10 Aug, SFHA 2-4 on 5 Dec
East Stirling v Northern: AFS 6-5 on 20 Feb, SFHA 6-2 on 23 Apr
Kilmarnock v Airdrie: AFS 6-1, SFHA 4-0 (both say 12 Sep)
Kilmarnock v Glasgow Thistle: AFS 6-1, SFHA 5-1 (both 15 Aug)
Kings Park v East Stirling: AFS 4-2 on 5 Dec, SFHA 2-3 on 10 Oct
Linthouse v East Stirling: AFS 6-1, SFHA 5-1 (both 23 Jan)
Morton v Kings Park: AFS 8-2, SFHA 3-2 (both 9 April)
Morton v Partick Thistle: AFS 2-1, SFHA 3-1 (both 30 Jan)
Morton v Port Glasgow: AFS 1-2 on 7 Nov, SFHA 5-5 on 19 Sep
Northern v Airdrie: AFS 5-2,SFHA 5-3 (both 22 Aug)
Port Glasgow v Morton: AFS 5-5 on 19 Sep, SFHA 1-3 on 21 May
Port Glasgow v Northern: AFS 4-0, SFHA 6-4 (both 16 Apr)
St Bernards v Glasgow Thistle: AFS 6-1 on 15 Aug, SFHA 6-0 on 30 Jan
Glasgow Thistle v Kings Park: AFS 7-1 on 26 Mar, SFHA 3-2 on 23 Jan
Glasgow Thistle v Linthouse: AFS 0-7, SFHA 3-2 (both 12 Dec)
Glasgow Thistle v Morton: AFS 1-3 on 14 Mar, SFHA 6-4 on 31 Oct

Some of these results (and dates) are wildly different - perhaps there was confusion even in contemporary newspapers between competitions.
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby ScottishFA » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:44 pm

By the way, I should add that if you PM me with your email address I'll send a scan of the page in the AFS annual.

However, the AFS annual for 1892-93 doesn't extend to the Alliance, it only has the Scottish League.
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Alan McCabe » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:49 pm

With The Shire being in the Alliance, the Falkirk Herald listed results twice weekly. Unfortunately the BNA only lists 1894-99 with earlier copies on microfilm at Falkirk Library.
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Partick Thistle » Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:01 am

Thanks indeed Sir that's very helpful indeed.

I do believe the proverbial can o' worms has been well and truly opened. Help ma boab...

I'll take baby steps for the moment... laying aside grand plans for home and away splits for now...

I added these 4 to the s-f-h-a results grid...

Morton 5 Linthouse 3 (27th February 1892) [press verified]
Port Glasgow Athletic 4 King's Park 1 (30th April 1892) [note: Can't see press verification as yet]
Port Glasgow Athletic 2 Partick Thistle 2 (23rd January 1892) [press verified]
Glasgow Thistle 2 Partick Thistle 2 (27th February 1892) [press verified]

Published table on s-f-h-a (Pld, W, D, L, F, A Pts)
22 15 3 4 89 51 33 Linthouse
22 13 3 6 76 39 29 Kilmarnock
22 12 3 7 67 66 27 Morton
22 11 4 7 63 45 26 St Bernards
22 9 4 9 76 70 22 Northern
22 8 5 9 65 66 21 Airdrieonians
22 7 6 9 54 56 20 Port Glasgow Athletic
22 8 4 10 64 70 20 Ayr FC
22 8 3 11 48 66 19 Partick Thistle
22 7 4 11 62 82 18 East Stirlingshire
22 7 1 14 60 84 15 King's Park
22 5 4 13 55 84 14 Glasgow Thistle
Table totals:
264 110 44 110 779 779 264


Grid results table on s-f-h-a (Pld, W, D, L, F, A Pts)
22 14 3 5 84 49 31 Linthouse
22 13 3 6 73 38 29 Kilmarnock
22 12 3 7 65 71 27 Morton
22 11 4 7 63 45 26 St Bernards
22 9 4 9 77 73 22 Northern
22 8 5 9 65 64 21 Airdrieonians
22 8 4 10 65 70 20 Ayr FC
22 8 3 11 48 66 19 Partick Thistle
22 7 4 11 62 78 18 East Stirlingshire
22 6 6 10 55 62 18 Port Glasgow Athletic
22 8 1 13 61 72 17 King's Park
22 6 4 12 51 81 16 Glasgow Thistle
Table totals:
264 110 44 110 769 769 264
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Partick Thistle » Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:08 am

Obviously, they can't both be right. Even the Champions points total is at odds.

As previously suspected, St Bernard's and Partick Thistle are the only two which check out and tally perfectly in both tables.

So, now the tricky bit, which results in the s-f-h-a grid are right?

Maybe all of them?

Hmm. I shall away and ponder the next steps as I'm now publically pontificating off the top of my head and that's rarely wise...
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby jeroen » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:28 am

I don't know about Scotland, but in the Netherlands results were sometimes changed after the match was played, because of an official protest of one the clubs.
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Partick Thistle » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:57 pm

^ Thankfully, I don't think it's a case of result changes Jeroen. Imagine? We would need to track down the minutes from the Alliance AGM. If your research in the Netherlands needs to deal with that issue then you have my sympathy. There was certainly a big "protest culture" in 19th century Scotland. I don't think it would unreasonable to guess that two to three hundred Cup Games were voided and replayed at that time, something which is largely non-existent (thankfully) these days.

Some progress...

East Stirling v Kings Park: AFS 3-2 on 10 Aug, SFHA 2-4 on 5 Dec
AFS, 10 Aug, a Monday (unlikely) no report (see return fixture for a bit of a clue on where they get this from)... SFHA surely correct, 2-4, according to written account in the Scotsman which quotes "Alliance" as the match.

Kings Park v East Stirling: AFS 4-2 on 5 Dec, SFHA 2-3 on 10 Oct
I suspect AFS have the ES home fixture in the wrong place as well as the 10 Aug / 10 Oct mix up. The 5 Dec game was "played at Falkirk" as per report above. SFHA correct, 2-3 "played at Stirling" reported in the Alliance section of the Scotsman.


Port Glasgow v Morton: AFS 5-5 on 19 Sep, SFHA 1-3 on 21 May
AFS are correct here, 5-5 draw at Clune Park on 19th September in Herald written report, Alliance quoted. As for SFHA, well there is a 3-1 win for Morton on 21 May but it's at Cappielow and there's no mention of Alliance acc. to all the Times/Scotsman & Herald reports.

Morton v Port Glasgow: AFS 1-2 on 7 Nov, SFHA 5-5 on 19 Sep
Port do win 2-1 at Greenock acc. to Herald report but no mention of Alliance, so in doubt at the moment. The SFHA game needs to be changed to the Port home row of the grid.

As can be seen from above 2 games there are 2 press reported instances of Morton v Port Glasgow - 7 Nov (1-2) and 21 May (3-1). Personally, yet to see a report for either using the "Alliance" term.


Ayr v Airdrie: AFS 2-1, SFHA 3-2 (both say 19 March)
I'd say SFHA correct, 3-2, according to written account in the Times/Scotsman.

Ayr v Morton: AFS 4-3 on 23 Jan, SFHA 5-3 on 13 Feb
AFS, can find no report of 4-3 on 23rd January... I'd say SFHA correct, 5-3, according to written account in the Times/Scotsman which quotes "Alliance" as the match.

East Stirling v Northern: AFS 6-5 on 20 Feb, SFHA 6-2 on 23 Apr
The answer is a combo! It was 6-5 on the 23rd April (6-2 was the half-time score) as reported in the Glasgow Herald.

Kilmarnock v Airdrie: AFS 6-1, SFHA 4-0 (both say 12 Sep)
A single line in the Scotsman says 4-0 to Killie, not the most convincing but I'm 95% there with it.

Kilmarnock v Glasgow Thistle: AFS 6-1, SFHA 5-1 (both 15 Aug)
Nice and clearly reported as 5-1 in both the Scotsman and the Herald.

Linthouse v East Stirling: AFS 6-1, SFHA 5-1 (both 23 Jan)
Nice and clearly reported as 5-1 in both the Scotsman and the Herald.

Morton v Kings Park: AFS 8-2, SFHA 3-2 (both 9 April)
Clearly reported all around as 3-2. AFS seem like ink splodge victims.

Morton v Partick Thistle: AFS 2-1, SFHA 3-1 (both 30 Jan)
3-1. Previously verified by myself via detailed press reports.

Northern v Airdrie: AFS 5-2,SFHA 5-3 (both 22 Aug)
5-3 in the concise written report in the Scotsman. Could anyone make a case for the 5-2?

Port Glasgow v Northern: AFS 4-0, SFHA 6-4 (both 16 Apr)
AFS have it. "4 to 0 in favour of the Athletic" ascertained from the report in the Herald which concurs with the written text. I suspect that whoever compiled the s-f-h-a grid was tricked by ink splodge which almost reads like "4 to 6".

St Bernards v Glasgow Thistle: AFS 6-1 on 15 Aug, SFHA 6-0 on 30 Jan
AFS can't be right here. St Bernard's were losing 6-2 at Ayr on 15 Aug. 6-0 confirmed in great detail with Scotsman report.

Glasgow Thistle v Kings Park: AFS 7-1 on 26 Mar, SFHA 3-2 on 23 Jan
AFS - can find no report of 7-1 on 26th March. SFHA - Of the game on the 23rd, the Herald reports that Stark of the Thistle breaks a leg and that the game is to be deemed a "friendly".

Glasgow Thistle v Linthouse: AFS 0-7, SFHA 3-2 (both 12 Dec)
3-2 confirmed in great detail with the Herald report.

Glasgow Thistle v Morton: AFS 1-3 on 14 Mar, SFHA 6-4 on 31 Oct
14 Mar is a Monday. Have searched Saturday 12th through to Saturday 19th. No reports found. Also checked 14th May, Thistle played Northern in The North Eastern Cup Final, so no joy there. Morton 4 Thistle 6 at Greenock reported in both Scotsman & Herald, though both make no mention of Alliance. Could Thistle have played a designated home match away? There are many Scottish League instances of same over the years...
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby BMCCOLL » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:39 pm

I haven't looked at the grids for this league for a good while, so fresh pairs of eyes are always welcomed! I'll of course be looking to correct all the errors in the grids.

I'm currently compiling a record of wartime football in Britain, hopefully to be published within the next couple of months, and this is eating up all my time, hence the lack of regular updates to the site. However I am closing in on the end of the tunnel, so hopefully I can recommence my Scottish research then.
http://scottish-football-historical-archive.co.uk
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Partick Thistle » Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:28 pm

Brian, I currently count 3 changes, not too bad. I'll do you a summary at the end.

Andy, thanks a lot for that AFS page scan. I ran my eyes over the grids for a double check. No more results anomalies. As for those wild dates, WOW! I've rarely seen the likes. Pushing 20% error across the grid. I picked out over 20 matches which differed in date from SFHA (almost the entire St Bernard's line) and can only conclude that the typesetter had a 'mare! Add that to the usual home / away / replay / ink splodge errors and I think this explains the apparent carnage.

IN SUMMARY (HELP REQUIRED!)

Kilmarnock 4 Airdrie 0
12th September 1891. Some solid press verification would be nice for this result.

Port Glasgow Athletic v King's Park
Not on SFHA grid as yet. Reported as 4-1, 30 April 1892 in AFS annual. Press verification required, especially in lieu of AFS date error ratio.

Morton v Port Glasgow
There are 2 press reported instances of Morton v Port Glasgow - 7 Nov (1-2) and 21 May (3-1). Personally, yet to see a report for either using the "Alliance" term. Which (if any of these) is the Alliance game?

Glasgow Thistle v King's Park
The SFHA lists 0-2 on the 23rd January. Herald says 1-3 but that seems incidental as the Herald reports that, mid play, the game was demoted from Alliance to friendly status on account of the fact that Stark of Thistle had broken his leg.
AFS report 7-1 on 26th March, but I can find no press report. Bearing in mind that the AFS annual has approximately 20% date error for its grid, that may not be too surprising. The 7-1 may prove to be valid but where exactly is it lurking in the archives?

Glasgow Thistle v Morton
The SFHA lists 6-4 on the 31st October. Wary because that game was played at Cappielow, as reported in both Scotsman & Herald. Also, both reports make no mention of Alliance. Could Thistle have played a designated home match away? There are many Scottish League instances of same over the years...
The AFS lists 1-3 on the 14th March, which is a Monday. Have searched Saturday 12th through to Saturday 19th. No reports found. Also checked 14th May, Thistle played Northern in The North Eastern Cup Final, so no joy there. As previously mentioned, the date errors in the AFS are pretty wild. 1-3 could well be the answer but where is it to be found?
Last edited by Partick Thistle on Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Partick Thistle » Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:44 pm

Further question,

Would anyone be able to confirm that equal points meant an equal placing in this League?
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Scottish » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:18 pm

Partick Thistle wrote:Further question,

Would anyone be able to confirm that equal points meant an equal placing in this League?


That was the case in the SFL. I can't think of a reason why this should be any different.
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Scottish » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:19 pm

Richard Cairns adds this:

1891/92
Result on 12th September was Kilmarnock 6 v Airdrieonians 1 (six KFC scorers are given in the local Kilmarnock papers). 4-0 was the half time score!
The only other discrepancy in Kilmarnock's results is that I have Kilmarnock 5 v Thistle 1 at Rugby Park on 15th August, not 6-1. I'll recheck the local match report.

1892/93
Both Killie - Airdrie matches were played at Airdrie - 10th September Airdrieonians 4 Kilmarnock 0, and 13th May Airdrieonians 6 v Kilmarnock 1.
I agree with Killie's record of 18 3 5 10 41-51 11
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