Scottish Alliance

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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Partick Thistle » Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:44 pm

I have enough information to produce the table for 1892-93...

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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Partick Thistle » Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:56 pm

I should add that the General Notes statement per SFHA is, of course, pending Brian's approval in regards to the 1 additional result and 3 corrected results for the grid.
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Scottish » Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:37 pm

Skyline Drifter wrote:Excuse my bumbling around in an area I know nothing about but going through the QoS Minute Books for 1926 there are references to Alliance fixtures. Did an entirely different Alliance come into being somewhere around that time or did the one referred to here stumble along for a further 30 years? Or is it indeed just a way of referring to reserve games, as I suspect the matches appear to be played by the Reserves or "A" team.


A number of teams from the defunct Third Division joined the Alliance in 1926.
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Partick Thistle » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:12 pm

BTW, apologies to Brian McColl for holding his results grids up for intense public scrutiny like this.

Brian is the only man who was brave enough to put the Scottish Alliance out there - R.E.S.P.E.C.T. I'm using the grids as they're a guiding focal point for others to use as the backbone for this task, hoping that I can get some more help from the community. I'm sure that my quest can help these grids on their way at the same time. In short, it's my intention to do my bit to help, not to simply just point out any errors, so I hope that's coming across!

And, as I'm founding out for myself, there are tripwires galore on 1891-92. As I did with 1892-93 (which, I have to say, was much easier to nail down) I ran through the entire season, one page at a time via the London Hearts site. And by the way, just HOW good is that resource? Pretty much two newspaper verifications for every Alliance game going, all in one easy quick-click through style. Totally amazing, and thanks and praise are due to the boy Davy for putting that together.

Unfortunately, however, rather than clear up issues, the full season run through just gave me a few more. Which is really great news when you think about it - you know it'll be a proper job when it's done. And as the bold Magnus once famously stated "I've started so I'll finish"... maybe not this week mind you…

I note that if the results pan out the way in the way that I now suspect that they will then both John Weir's table (the one which is currently published on the SFHA page) and the AFS table will be correct for the total wins, total draws, total losses and total points columns. However, both would be innacurate (and also fairly different from each other) in both the goals For and goals Against columns.

To try and focus on the ongoing task for myself (and hopefully others) I will make two posts below, one detailing resolved games for the SFHA grid and one for unresolved games for the SFHA grid. If any progress is made then I will edit these posts accordingly, moving games from the unresolved to the resolved section. This should give a constantly clear picture until the end result is achieved.
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Partick Thistle » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:13 pm

SFHA 1891-92 grid - resolved games

East Stirlingshire 6 Northern 5
SFHA grid: 6-2, Apr-23 ; AFS grid: 6-5, Feb-20
It was 6-5 on the 23rd April (6-2 was the half-time score) as reported in the Glasgow Herald. Grid needs changed.

Glasgow Thistle 2 Partick Thistle 2
SFHA grid: no entry ; AFS grid: 2-2, Feb-27
Played on 27th February 1892, above result and venue press verified. Needs added to grid.

Kilmarnock 6 Airdrieonians 1
SFHA grid: 4-0, Sep-12 ; AFS grid: 6-1, Sep-12
It was 6-1 on the 12th September as reported in the Glasgow Herald and by Richard Cairns via local press. Grid needs changed.

Morton 5 Linthouse 3
SFHA grid: no entry ; AFS grid: 5-3, Feb-27
Played on 27th February 1892, above result and venue press verified. Needs added to grid.

Port Glasgow Athletic 5 Morton 5
SFHA grid: 1-3, May-21 ; AFS grid: 5-5, Sep-19
It was a 5-5 draw at Clune Park on 19th September in Herald written report, Alliance quoted. As for SFHA, well there is a 3-1 win for Morton on 21 May but it's at Cappielow and there's no mention of Alliance acc. to all the Times/Scotsman & Herald reports. Grid needs changed.

Port Glasgow Athletic 4 Northern 0
SFHA grid: 6-4, Apr-16 ; AFS grid: 4-0, Apr-16
It was 4-0 on the 16th April, ascertained from the report in the Herald which wholly concurs with the written text. Grid needs changed.

Port Glasgow Athletic 2 Partick Thistle 2
SFHA grid: no entry ; AFS grid: 2-2, Jan-23
Played on 23rd January 1892, above result and venue press verified. Needs added to grid.
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Partick Thistle » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:16 pm

SFHA 1891-92 grid - unresolved games

? - Ayr 7 East Stirlingshire 0
SFHA grid: 7-0, Feb-27 ; AFS grid: 7-0, no date offered
Common agreement with SFHA / AFS (on result) so not much doubt, although I note that there was no mention in the Herald or Scotsman. Any peace of mind comments would be welcomed.

? - Ayr 5 Glasgow Thistle 1
SFHA grid: 5-1, Feb-6 ; AFS grid: 5-1, Feb-6
Common agreement with SFHA / AFS (on both result and date) so not much doubt, although I note that there was no mention in the Herald or Scotsman. Any peace of mind comments would be welcomed.

? - Glasgow Thistle 7 King's Park 1
SFHA grid: 0-2, Jan-23 ; AFS grid: 7-1, Mar-26
SFHA - Of the game on the 23rd, the Herald actually says 1-3 but that seems incidental as the paper reports that, mid play, the game was demoted from Alliance to friendly status on account of the fact that Stark of Thistle had broken his leg.
AFS report 7-1 on 26th March, but I can find no press report. Bearing in mind that the AFS annual has approximately 20% date error for its grid, that may not be too surprising. The 7-1 may prove to be valid but where exactly is it lurking in the archives?

? - Glasgow Thistle 5 Linthouse 6
SFHA grid: 3-2, Dec-12 ; AFS grid: 0-7, Dec-12
SFHA: 3-2 was confirmed in great detail with the Herald report and, initially, I was ready to go along with that. However, Brian notes (as did I when I did my season run through) that this match seems to have been replayed. Both the Herald and the Scotsman have Thistle 5 Linthouse 6 on 13th February also reported as an Alliance game. Somewhat CRUCIALLY, I note that the finished table really needs to concur with Linthouse having won 15, drawn 3 and lost 4 (as it would if we accept the game of 13th February). This W-D-L tally is quoted in the AFS table, John Weir's table (as reproduced at the SFHA) and was also included in the written report in the Herald in the game where Linthouse won the Championship (the 7th May game v Port). That report states: "As Linthouse, by winning this match, would be returned Alliance champions, considerable interest was taken in the event... the Linthouse thus win the Championship for the season 1891-92 with a score of 33 points out of a possible 44. In the competition they have played 22 matches, won 15, drawn 3, lost 4." ~ The Glasgow Herald, 9th May 1892
AFS: Who knows what that's all about. It has no foundation in any known reality.
It seems to me that we could safely and confidently deduce that the 5-6 game on the 13th February was the official Alliance match, whether originally intended that way or not. Thoughts?

? Glasgow Thistle 1 Morton 3
SFHA grid: 6-4, Oct-31 ; AFS grid: 1-3, Mar-14
The SFHA lists 6-4 on the 31st October. Wary because that game was played at Cappielow, as reported in both Scotsman & Herald. Also, both reports make no mention of Alliance. Could Thistle have played a designated home match away? There are many Scottish League instances of same over the years. This does, however, seem unlikely in view of the AFS grid result and the resulting consequence.
The AFS lists 1-3 on the 14th March, which is a Monday. Have searched Saturday 12th through to Saturday 19th. No reports found. Also checked 14th May, Thistle played Northern in The North Eastern Cup Final, so no joy there. As previously mentioned, the date errors in the AFS are pretty wild. 1-3 could well be the answer but where is it to be found?
Note: 1-3 would certainly pull the finishing points total into line as per both the AFS & John Weir tables. A press-reported Alliance finishing table would help with the deducement of the official Thistle v Morton Alliance match.

? - Morton 4 Airdrieonians 1
SFHA grid: 4-1, Oct-24 ; AFS grid: 4-1, Oct-24
Common agreement with SFHA / AFS (on both result and date) so not too much doubt. Although Brian notes (as did I) that there was also a Morton 3 Airdrieonians 1 on 26th September. The press reports I've read for the 26th September game make no mention of Alliance, however, nor do the reports for the 24th October game. Alliance meeting of 5th November (reported in the Scotsman) talks about an Airdrieonians protest that their game v Morton be replayed on account of descending darkness. Their protest was not upheld. I'd say that this could be seen as further evidence to confirm that the 24th October game was indeed the official Alliance one, given that it was the most recent (2 weeks previously) and also the more likely of the 2 games to have been so troubled by descending darkness. Thoughts?

? - Morton 1 Port Glasgow 2
SFHA grid: 5-5, Sep-19 ; AFS grid: 1-2, Nov-7
As previously mentioned, the SFHA game needs to be changed to the Port home row of the grid.
Port do win 2-1 at Greenock acc. to Herald report but no mention of Alliance, so slight doubt at the moment. It could be worth considering that there are 2 press reported instances of Morton v Port Glasgow - 7 Nov (1-2) and 21 May (3-1).
Personally, yet to see a report for either using the "Alliance" term but looking again at the reports, I'm leaning towards the 7th November game…
(i) It's the more conventional date when I'd expect the game to be played. There were no local Cup ties between the sides that season. 21st May was very late on and would not have been an originally scheduled League date. I would guess that this late May date would host the stray League fixtures, yet unfulfilled. There is only one other fixture quoted on 21st May, Airdrieonians v Northern, the latest date on the grid.
(ii) There's nothing controversial in the 7th November reports that suggest a replay could be on the cards.
(iii) Although the vast majority of press reports quote "Alliance" where appropriate for the fixture, they certainly weren't 100% dilligent in this regard. Although the 7th November Scotsman and Herald reports for the game in question do not mention "Alliance" the same can be said for both papers in regards to the Partick Thistle v St Bernard's fixture on the same day which was, most definitely, an Alliance League fixture.
(iv) The AFS grid must be worth something.
An "in-play" League table close to, but not beyond, 21 May would tally Morton's fixtures to a set date in time and the answer could be deduced. Can anyone see such a thing from Sport / Referee / Umpire / other local?
I note that, not once, have I ever seen any Alliance table in the Herald or the Scotsman for the first two seasons, 1891-92 or 1892-93. Unbelievable…

? - Port Glasgow Athletic 4 King's Park 1
SFHA grid: no entry ; AFS grid: 4-1, Apr-30
No press verification found as yet.
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby BMCCOLL » Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:46 pm

No offence taken whatsoever regarding the scrutiny given to the grids... I'm absolutely delighted that you're taking on the task of verifying what I do have and correcting the errors. Fresh pairs of eyes, as I've said before, are essential in this line of research as you do become blinded by the stats! I'll correct the grids I have and re-post them on the site.

As you all know I'm pulling together a book tentatively called British Wartime Football - A Complete Record, and am reviewing the results of the Western and Eastern Leagues of WWI. Can anyone confirm the former's official name; I have a report of it being formed as the West of Scotland League, although later reports term it as simply the Western League.

Cheers
http://scottish-football-historical-archive.co.uk
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby ScottishFA » Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:43 pm

Ayr 7 East Stirlingshire 0
SFHA grid: 7-0, Feb-27 ; AFS grid: 7-0, no date offered
Common agreement with SFHA / AFS (on result) so not much doubt, although I note that there was no mention in the Herald or Scotsman. Any peace of mind comments would be welcomed.

In Aberdeen Journal, confirmed Feb 27

Ayr 5 Glasgow Thistle 1
SFHA grid: 5-1, Feb-6 ; AFS grid: 5-1, Feb-6
Common agreement with SFHA / AFS (on both result and date) so not much doubt, although I note that there was no mention in the Herald or Scotsman. Any peace of mind comments would be welcomed.

In Aberdeen Journal and Dundee Courier, confirmed

? - Glasgow Thistle 7 King's Park 1
SFHA grid: 0-2, Jan-23 ; AFS grid: 7-1, Mar-26
SFHA - Of the game on the 23rd, the Herald actually says 1-3 but that seems incidental as the paper reports that, mid play, the game was demoted from Alliance to friendly status on account of the fact that Stark of Thistle had broken his leg.
AFS report 7-1 on 26th March, but I can find no press report. Bearing in mind that the AFS annual has approximately 20% date error for its grid, that may not be too surprising. The 7-1 may prove to be valid but where exactly is it lurking in the archives?

Dundee Courier of Monday 28 March: The Thistle and the King's Park did not play (snow). No other date found


? - Glasgow Thistle 5 Linthouse 6
SFHA grid: 3-2, Dec-12 ; AFS grid: 0-7, Dec-12
SFHA: 3-2 was confirmed in great detail with the Herald report and, initially, I was ready to go along with that. However, Brian notes (as did I when I did my season run through) that this match seems to have been replayed. Both the Herald and the Scotsman have Thistle 5 Linthouse 6 on 13th February also reported as an Alliance game. Somewhat CRUCIALLY, I note that the finished table really needs to concur with Linthouse having won 15, drawn 3 and lost 4 (as it would if we accept the game of 13th February). This W-D-L tally is quoted in the AFS table, John Weir's table (as reproduced at the SFHA) and was also included in the written report in the Herald in the game where Linthouse won the Championship (the 7th May game v Port). That report states: "As Linthouse, by winning this match, would be returned Alliance champions, considerable interest was taken in the event... the Linthouse thus win the Championship for the season 1891-92 with a score of 33 points out of a possible 44. In the competition they have played 22 matches, won 15, drawn 3, lost 4." ~ The Glasgow Herald, 9th May 1892
AFS: Who knows what that's all about. It has no foundation in any known reality.
It seems to me that we could safely and confidently deduce that the 5-6 game on the 13th February was the official Alliance match, whether originally intended that way or not. Thoughts?

Aberdeen Evening Express results for 13 Feb states: Alliance, Linthouse 6 Glasgow Thistle 5

? Glasgow Thistle 1 Morton 3
SFHA grid: 6-4, Oct-31 ; AFS grid: 1-3, Mar-14
The SFHA lists 6-4 on the 31st October. Wary because that game was played at Cappielow, as reported in both Scotsman & Herald. Also, both reports make no mention of Alliance. Could Thistle have played a designated home match away? There are many Scottish League instances of same over the years. This does, however, seem unlikely in view of the AFS grid result and the resulting consequence.
The AFS lists 1-3 on the 14th March, which is a Monday. Have searched Saturday 12th through to Saturday 19th. No reports found. Also checked 14th May, Thistle played Northern in The North Eastern Cup Final, so no joy there. As previously mentioned, the date errors in the AFS are pretty wild. 1-3 could well be the answer but where is it to be found?
Note: 1-3 would certainly pull the finishing points total into line as per both the AFS & John Weir tables. A press-reported Alliance finishing table would help with the deducement of the official Thistle v Morton Alliance match.

Also nothing in papers for the 14 March date. The 6-4 game on 31 Oct is listed in the Aberdeen Journal under 'other games'.

? - Morton 4 Airdrieonians 1
SFHA grid: 4-1, Oct-24 ; AFS grid: 4-1, Oct-24
Common agreement with SFHA / AFS (on both result and date) so not too much doubt. Although Brian notes (as did I) that there was also a Morton 3 Airdrieonians 1 on 26th September. The press reports I've read for the 26th September game make no mention of Alliance, however, nor do the reports for the 24th October game. Alliance meeting of 5th November (reported in the Scotsman) talks about an Airdrieonians protest that their game v Morton be replayed on account of descending darkness. Their protest was not upheld. I'd say that this could be seen as further evidence to confirm that the 24th October game was indeed the official Alliance one, given that it was the most recent (2 weeks previously) and also the more likely of the 2 games to have been so troubled by descending darkness. Thoughts?

Listed in Aberdeen Journal under 'Alliance matches' played on 24 Oct

? - Morton 1 Port Glasgow 2
SFHA grid: 5-5, Sep-19 ; AFS grid: 1-2, Nov-7
As previously mentioned, the SFHA game needs to be changed to the Port home row of the grid.
Port do win 2-1 at Greenock acc. to Herald report but no mention of Alliance, so slight doubt at the moment. It could be worth considering that there are 2 press reported instances of Morton v Port Glasgow - 7 Nov (1-2) and 21 May (3-1).
Personally, yet to see a report for either using the "Alliance" term but looking again at the reports, I'm leaning towards the 7th November game…
(i) It's the more conventional date when I'd expect the game to be played. There were no local Cup ties between the sides that season. 21st May was very late on and would not have been an originally scheduled League date. I would guess that this late May date would host the stray League fixtures, yet unfulfilled. There is only one other fixture quoted on 21st May, Airdrieonians v Northern, the latest date on the grid.
(ii) There's nothing controversial in the 7th November reports that suggest a replay could be on the cards.
(iii) Although the vast majority of press reports quote "Alliance" where appropriate for the fixture, they certainly weren't 100% dilligent in this regard. Although the 7th November Scotsman and Herald reports for the game in question do not mention "Alliance" the same can be said for both papers in regards to the Partick Thistle v St Bernard's fixture on the same day which was, most definitely, an Alliance League fixture.
(iv) The AFS grid must be worth something.
An "in-play" League table close to, but not beyond, 21 May would tally Morton's fixtures to a set date in time and the answer could be deduced. Can anyone see such a thing from Sport / Referee / Umpire / other local?
I note that, not once, have I ever seen any Alliance table in the Herald or the Scotsman for the first two seasons, 1891-92 or 1892-93. Unbelievable…

Aberdeen Journal for 19 Sept state Alliance matches, and give score as Morton 5 Port Glasgow Athletics 5

? - Port Glasgow Athletic 4 King's Park 1
SFHA grid: no entry ; AFS grid: 4-1, Apr-30
No press verification found as yet.

Nothing found


NB Alliance league tables are given in the Edinburgh Evening News on 4 April 1892 and again on 9 May 1892. I don't have a BNA subscription at present, so can't access them, however.
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Partick Thistle » Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:11 pm

^ Thanks Andy, good progress being made...

ScottishFA wrote:Ayr 7 East Stirlingshire 0
In Aberdeen Journal, confirmed Feb 27
Ayr 5 Glasgow Thistle 1
In Aberdeen Journal and Dundee Courier, confirmed Feb 6
Yep, these two Ayr games now confirmed to satisfaction.
? - Glasgow Thistle 7 King's Park 1
Dundee Courier of Monday 28 March: The Thistle and the King's Park did not play (snow). No other date found
Yep, still seems like an outstanding fixture even as late as 16th May according to the Edinburgh Evening News table of that date. I will post more evidence for the 7-1 shortly.

? - Glasgow Thistle 5 Linthouse 6
Aberdeen Evening Express results for 13 Feb states: Alliance, Linthouse 6 Glasgow Thistle 5
I'm now 100% about this with all the previous evidence, I will post more in a mo. I note the AEE work in the auld tradition of winner first score. Definitely "played at the ground of the latter".

? Glasgow Thistle 1 Morton 3
Also nothing in papers for the 14 March date. The 6-4 game on 31 Oct is listed in the Aberdeen Journal under 'other games'.
Yep, 31 Oct out of the question. I have further evidence to ably back up the 1-3 which I will post shortly.

? - Morton 4 Airdrieonians 1
Listed in Aberdeen Journal under 'Alliance matches' played on 24 Oct
Yep, and this is now solid as per post below.

? - Morton 1 Port Glasgow 2
Aberdeen Journal for 19 Sept state Alliance matches, and give score as Morton 5 Port Glasgow Athletics 5
Yep, that 5-5 is as clear as day as the Clune Park Alliance fixture, further evidenced below.

? - Port Glasgow Athletic 4 King's Park 1
Nothing found
Not doubting the score too much but it's annoying not to have found this match reported. Have tooth combed all Tuesday to Friday editions of the Herald from the end of April to the first week of June. Also checked the all of the Monday papers that are available and likely at the BNA, no joy. Sometimes, history jousts resolutely with her secrets...



All the building evidence points to this as Morton's start to the Alliance…
Aug-22 Partick Thistle 1 Morton 2
Aug-29 Morton 4 Northern 3
Sep-19 Port Glasgow Athletic 5 Morton 5
Oct-03 Linthouse 6 Morton 0
Oct-10 Morton 3 St Bernards 1
Oct-24 Morton 4 Airdrieonians 1
Nov-07 Morton 1 Port Glasgow Athletic 2

which produces an in-play table of:
P W D L F-A Pts
7 4 1 2 19-19 9

Actual Evening News table 9 Nov:
P W D L F-A Pts
7 4 1 2 19-19 9
Image

BINGO!
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Partick Thistle » Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:44 pm

The Evening News, obviously keen to support St Bernards, kept a regular update on the Alliance table although they never concluded, as far as I can tell, with the actual final table.
Image

It's certainly not reference quality but it's helpful to an extent.

For a start, a quick check of the columns highlights the following mess:
P.....W...D...L.....F-A.....Pts
254 108 40 106 757-751 256

The compiler is 2 units short on games played and 2 units short on games lost. I've long since given up on expecting any sense from F-A totals in old publications.

Who did I most want to check? Morton. Who was the biggest curveball? Morton. Obviously. TOL. Check them out - Played 20, W 11 D3 L7. FFS! Killie are similarly afflicted. It's said that they've played 21 (I agree) but, somewhat miraculously, have contrived to win 13 draw 2 and lose 5. You've got to laugh.

Having wrestled intimately with this task I'm in a position to make a bold claim and say that both Morton and Port should have one more unit added to their "Played" column and that both Killie and Morton should each have one more unit added to their loss column. Not only would it bring some arithmetical sense to the table itself, it would also concur with my in-play Macro table for Played, Won, Drew, Lost and Points totals. It would also bring the table into line with expectation for an end result which agrees (on the W-D-L-points columns) with both AFS and John Weir. Strongly, all four of these sources (including myself in that) would seem to independent of each other, as all four have differing goals columns.

Furthermore, the above Evening News table suggests that there are four fixtures yet to be played. This agrees with my findings thus far. The 4 games yet to be played would be:
Ayr v Kilmarnock
Airdrieonians v Northern
Glasgow Thistle v King's Park
Glasgow Thistle v Morton
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Partick Thistle » Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:15 pm

Moving on one week in the Evening News and one more result has come in - Ayr 1 Kilmarnock 1 on the 14th May as expected.

I note that the table compiler seems oblivious to his basic arithmetical errors in the Morton and Kilmarnock totals and repeats the same.

Unfortunately, what with St Bernards having finished some weeks previously, this seems to be the last table for the season.

Image

The three results yet to come in would be:
May-21 Airdrieonians 2 Northern 2
May-?? (presumably sometime after the 16th?) Glasgow Thistle 7 King's Park 1
May-?? (presumably sometime after the 16th?) Glasgow Thistle 1 Morton 3

All three of these results would give the exact same Played, Won, Drew, Lost and Points totals for John Weir's table (i.e. the one which is presently published at the SFHA), my in-play table (which has SERIOUSLY been putting all 132 Alliance matches under the spotlight), the AFS table (who'd have thought it after their crazy results grid?) AND the above Evening News table (if you accept the previous explanation on their out of line column arithmetic).

Pleasingly, the two Thistle games, complete with mystery game thumping scoreline, would give them 55 goals in the Evening News table, which totals exactly with myself and John Weir. I think this can be seen as further evidence as to validity of that result, even though an actual press report has yet to be found.
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Partick Thistle » Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:03 pm

SFHA 1891-92 grid - final list of changes required.

Correct results and dates in bold...

East Stirlingshire 6 Northern 5 (23rd April)
SFHA grid: 6-2, Apr-23 ; AFS grid: 6-5, Feb-20
It was 6-5 on the 23rd April (6-2 was the half-time score) as reported in the Glasgow Herald. Grid needs changed.

Glasgow Thistle 7 King's Park 1 (date unknown)
SFHA grid: 0-2, Jan-23 ; AFS grid: 7-1, Mar-26
SFHA - Of the game on the 23rd, the Herald actually says 1-3 but that seems incidental as the paper reports that, mid play, the game was demoted from Alliance to friendly status on account of the fact that Stark of Thistle had broken his leg.
AFS report 7-1 on 26th March, but I can find no press report. Bearing in mind that the AFS annual has approximately 20% date error for its grid, that may not be too surprising. The 7-1 may prove to be valid but where exactly is it lurking in the archives?
Andy Mitchell quoted from Dundee Courier of Monday 28 March: "The Thistle and the King's Park did not play (snow)."
No other date has been found. I have checked the midweek Herald's from 30 April to 6 June.
The game still seems like an outstanding fixture even as late as 16th May according to the Edinburgh Evening News table of that date. The 7-1 scoreline would give them 55 goals in the Evening News table, which totals exactly with myself and John Weir. I think this can be seen as further evidence as to validity of this result, even though an actual press report has yet to be found.
I would reccommend that the SFHA grid be changed to reflect the 7-1 scoreline, but with a note to say that the date of the game cannot be found.

Glasgow Thistle 5 Linthouse 6 (13th February)
SFHA grid: 3-2, Dec-12 ; AFS grid: 0-7, Dec-12
SFHA: 3-2 was confirmed in great detail with the Herald report and, initially, I was ready to go along with that. However, Brian notes (as did I when I did my season run through) that this match seems to have been replayed. Both the Herald and the Scotsman have Thistle 5 Linthouse 6 on 13th February also reported as an Alliance game. Somewhat CRUCIALLY, I note that the finished table really needs to concur with Linthouse having won 15, drawn 3 and lost 4 (as it would if we accept the game of 13th February). This W-D-L tally is quoted in the AFS table, John Weir's table (as reproduced at the SFHA) and was also included in the written report in the Herald in the game where Linthouse won the Championship (the 7th May game v Port). That report states: "As Linthouse, by winning this match, would be returned Alliance champions, considerable interest was taken in the event... the Linthouse thus win the Championship for the season 1891-92 with a score of 33 points out of a possible 44. In the competition they have played 22 matches, won 15, drawn 3, lost 4." ~ The Glasgow Herald, 9th May 1892
AFS: Who knows what that's all about. It has no foundation in any known reality.
Aberdeen Evening Express results for 13 Feb states: Alliance, Linthouse 6 Glasgow Thistle 5.
This exceptionally high scoring match has considerable bearing on the goals columns.
With it, my table reads For 88 Against 51. This is exactly the same as published in the Evening News tables of 9th and 16th May.
It can clearly be deduced that the 5-6 game on the 13th February was the official Alliance match, whether originally intended that way or not.

Glasgow Thistle 1 Morton 3 (date unknown)
SFHA grid: 6-4, Oct-31 ; AFS grid: 1-3, Mar-14
The SFHA lists 6-4 on the 31st October. Wary because that game was played at Cappielow, as reported in both Scotsman & Herald. Also, both reports make no mention of Alliance, nor does Aberdeen Journal.
The AFS lists 1-3 on the 14th March, which is a Monday. Have searched Saturday 12th through to Saturday 19th. No reports found. Also checked 14th May, Thistle played Northern in The North Eastern Cup Final, so no joy there. As previously mentioned, the date errors in the AFS are pretty wild. 1-3 could well be the answer but where is it to be found?
Note: 1-3 would certainly pull the finishing points total into line as per both the AFS & John Weir tables. A press-reported Alliance finishing table would help with the deducement of the official Thistle v Morton Alliance match.
The Evening News table of 9th May and 16th May makes the final case for the 1-3 as this result puts the W-D-L Thistle totals in line with AFS, John Weir and the Evening News, with a further note to say that the goals "For" total of 55 checks-out on my table, John Weir's table and the Evening News table.

Glasgow Thistle 2 Partick Thistle 2 (27th February)
SFHA grid: no entry ; AFS grid: 2-2, Feb-27
Played on 27th February 1892, above result and venue press verified. Needs added to grid.

Kilmarnock 6 Airdrieonians 1 (12th September)
SFHA grid: 4-0, Sep-12 ; AFS grid: 6-1, Sep-12
It was 6-1 on the 12th September as reported in the Glasgow Herald and by Richard Cairns via local press. Grid needs changed.

Morton 5 Linthouse 3 (27th February)
SFHA grid: no entry ; AFS grid: 5-3, Feb-27
Played on 27th February 1892, above result and venue press verified. Needs added to grid.

Morton 1 Port Glasgow 2 (7th November)
SFHA grid: 5-5, Sep-19 ; AFS grid: 1-2, Nov-7
As previously mentioned, the SFHA game needs to be changed to the Port home row of the grid.
Port do win 2-1 at Greenock acc. to Herald report but no mention of Alliance, so slight doubt at the moment. It could be worth considering that there are 2 press reported instances of Morton v Port Glasgow - 7 Nov (1-2) and 21 May (3-1).
Personally, yet to see a report for either using the "Alliance" term but looking again at the reports, I'm leaning towards the 7th November game…
(i) It's the more conventional date when I'd expect the game to be played. There were no local Cup ties between the sides that season. 21st May was very late on and would not have been an originally scheduled League date. I would guess that this late May date would host the stray League fixtures, yet unfulfilled. There is only one other fixture quoted on 21st May, Airdrieonians v Northern, the latest date on the grid.
(ii) There's nothing controversial in the 7th November reports that suggest a replay could be on the cards.
(iii) Although the vast majority of press reports quote "Alliance" where appropriate for the fixture, they certainly weren't 100% dilligent in this regard. Although the 7th November Scotsman and Herald reports for the game in question do not mention "Alliance" the same can be said for both papers in regards to the Partick Thistle v St Bernard's fixture on the same day which was, most definitely, an Alliance League fixture.
(iv) The AFS grid must be worth something.
On top of those initial thoughts, the fact that this is Morton's 7th game in the Alliance campaign is backed up by the Evening News table of 9th November 1891 which perfectly totals on all columns (P W D L F-A Pts) with this Morton result, and, indeed, all 6 previous Morton results to that date in time.

Port Glasgow Athletic 5 Morton 5 (19th September)
SFHA grid: 1-3, May-21 ; AFS grid: 5-5, Sep-19
It was a 5-5 draw at Clune Park on 19th September in Herald written report, Alliance quoted. As for SFHA, well there is a 3-1 win for Morton on 21 May but it's at Cappielow and there's no mention of Alliance acc. to all the Times/Scotsman & Herald reports. Grid needs changed.

Port Glasgow Athletic 4 Northern 0 (16th April)
SFHA grid: 6-4, Apr-16 ; AFS grid: 4-0, Apr-16
It was 4-0 on the 16th April, ascertained from the report in the Herald which wholly concurs with the written text. Grid needs changed.

Port Glasgow Athletic 2 Partick Thistle 2 (23rd January)
SFHA grid: no entry ; AFS grid: 2-2, Jan-23
Played on 23rd January 1892, above result and venue press verified. Needs added to grid.
William
Partick Thistle
 
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Partick Thistle » Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:57 pm

I'm now as satisfied as I can be with all of these results, hence this final table. The un-verified games are acknowledged in General Notes.

Image
William
Partick Thistle
 
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Partick Thistle » Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:25 pm

Thanks to all helpers on the above, especially to Brian for all the hard graft in putting those Alliance grids out there on the SFHA in the first place.

Big thanks to Andy Mitchell for some excellent pointers and assistance, both on thread and behind the scenes.

And thanks also to Davy at London Hearts for selflessly creating such a fabulous research resource for all.
William
Partick Thistle
 
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby sam peckinpah » Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:59 pm

I have the Airdrieonians results for season 1891/92 and have attached a link - hope this helps!

mail-attachment.googleusercontent.com/attachment/?ui=2&ik=17567b7b2b&view=att&th=1451f605a56b3d05&attid=0.1&disp=inline&safe=1&zw&saduie=AG9B_P8ZQDocorUGSUePkT_Ji5S6&sadet=1396636307102&sads=_E6PMvvPy05L_W1u1J0rfnYYh2c
sam peckinpah
 
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