Scottish Alliance

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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Partick Thistle » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:32 pm

Thanks David and Richard. 6-1 Killie it is, brilliant stuff. All agreed on Killie 5 Thistle 1 as well, strong reports in Herald and Scotsman for that one.
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Partick Thistle » Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:03 pm

Partick Thistle wrote:Morton v Port Glasgow
There are 2 press reported instances of Morton v Port Glasgow - 7 Nov (1-2) and 21 May (3-1). Personally, yet to see a report for either using the "Alliance" term. Which (if any of these) is the Alliance game?

Looking again at the reports, I'm leaning towards the 7th November game…
(i) It's the more conventional date when I'd expect the game to be played. There were no local Cup ties between the sides that season. 21st May was very late on and would not have been an originally scheduled League date. I would guess that this late May date would host the stray League fixtures, yet unfulfilled. There is only one other fixture quoted on 21st May, Airdrieonians v Northern, the latest date on the grid.
(ii) There's nothing controversial in the 7th November reports that suggest a replay could be on the cards.
(iii) Although the vast majority of press reports quote "Alliance" where appropriate for the fixture, they certainly weren't 100% dilligent in this regard. Although the 7th November Scotsman and Herald reports for the game in question do not mention "Alliance" the same can be said for both papers in regards to the Partick Thistle v St Bernard's fixture on the same day which was, most definitely, an Alliance League fixture.


scottish wrote:Richard Cairns adds this:
1892/93
Both Killie - Airdrie matches were played at Airdrie - 10th September Airdrieonians 4 Kilmarnock 0, and 13th May Airdrieonians 6 v Kilmarnock 1.
I agree with Killie's record of 18 3 5 10 41-51 11

TOL. (this is, what I imagine to be, the text speak for tut out loud) Do you think Richard would be able to ascertain which was the designated Killie home fixture? Drilling in to the minutae I know. LOL. (not really) Big ask, I know...


So, keeping 1891-92 simmering away at the minute, I will make a small start on 1892-93 (and that other lot reckon we can't multi task?)

Firstly, I've added in the Killie 1 Airdrie 6, as per Richard Cairns, to the s-f-h-a grid (the only missing game).

Published table (1892-93) on s-f-h-a (Pld, W, D, L, F, A Pts)
18 14 2 2 68 31 30 Cowlairs
18 11 1 6 60 40 23 St Bernards
18 11 1 6 52 46 23 Linthouse
18 10 2 6 62 48 22 Airdrieonians
18 9 1 8 49 44 19 Glasgow Thistle
18 7 1 10 43 61 15 Partick Thistle
18 6 2 10 46 57 14 Northern
18 5 2 11 33 53 12 Vale of Leven
18 3 5 10 41 51 11 Kilmarnock
18 3 5 10 30 52 11 Cambuslang
Table totals:
180 79 22 79 484 483 180
I note that the published table is not arithmetically viable - the For and Against columns do not counter balance.


Tabulating the results from the grid delivers conflicting tallies for 7 of the 10 teams from the published table…
Grid results table (1892-93) on s-f-h-a (Pld, W, D, L, F, A Pts)
18 14 2 2 68 33 30 Cowlairs, 1st
18 11 1 6 52 46 23 Linthouse, 2nd=
18 11 1 6 60 40 23 St Bernards, 2nd=
18 10 2 6 62 48 22 Airdrieonians, 4th
18 9 1 8 49 45 19 Glasgow Thistle, 5th
18 7 1 10 44 60 15 Partick Thistle, 6th
18 4 5 9 42 50 13 Kilmarnock, 7th
18 5 2 11 42 55 12 Northern, 8th=
18 5 2 11 33 53 12 Vale of Leven, 8th=
18 3 5 10 26 48 11 Cambuslang, 10th
Table totals:
180 79 22 79 478 478 180

I note that only Linthouse, Airdrieonians, Vale of Leven check-out in both tables.

I'm wondering if these tables are driven by the grid or whether they're from an independent source e.g. a newspaper etc?
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby BMCCOLL » Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:22 pm

The table was taken from the John Weir's Cowlairs history. This was no doubt also copied from an old yearbook or newspaper.

The results on the site which are in italics are ones not reported as being Alliance, but had fitted in with the general fixture lists. Unless there are any differing results, then I think it would be safe to assume that the amended table above is the correct version.
http://scottish-football-historical-archive.co.nf
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Alan Brown » Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:17 am

BMCCOLL wrote:I'm currently compiling a record of wartime football in Britain, hopefully to be published within the next couple of months, and this is eating up all my time, hence the lack of regular updates to the site. However I am closing in on the end of the tunnel, so hopefully I can recommence my Scottish research then.


Brian, I am hoping that we are not working on the same project!
My research is covering WW1 and the detailed season by season stats
and happenings in Scottish Football.

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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby BMCCOLL » Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:23 am

Alan Brown wrote:Brian, I am hoping that we are not working on the same project!
My research is covering WW1 and the detailed season by season stats
and happenings in Scottish Football.
Alan

I think we're ok in this regard, Alan.

My research covers all of the UK during WW1 and WW2, but not to the extent of line-ups or goalscrorers etc, simply dates and results in tabulated form. I've more or less finished the English stuff (just to type up 1945-46 season), this includes all the local cup results as well. The Scottish material is from the SFHA site plus a number of amendments, corrections etc. This will also include the Western and Eastern Leagues plus, again, all the local competitions. Northern Ireland will also be included.
All the work is original research from contemporary newspapers but my findings have thrown up a number of errors in the final tables as published elsewhere, which have been corrected. I have to thank Norman Nicol for his exemplary help here.
So far I reckon it'll run to around 250 A4 sized pages.
http://scottish-football-historical-archive.co.nf
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Alan Brown » Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:00 am

Sounds like a good piece of research Brian, can you put my name down for a copy.

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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Scottish » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:28 pm

Partick Thistle wrote: Do you think Richard would be able to ascertain which was the designated Killie home fixture? Drilling in to the minutae I know. LOL. (not really) Big ask, I know...


Ask and ye shall receive. Richard sends this:
Airdrie v Killie on 10th September was Airdrie's home fixture. Killie v Airdrie was due to be played on 8th April, but was postponed because Killie played Celtic in a Friendly at Rugby Park instead. Therefore match on 13th May at Airdrie was Killie's "home" fixture.
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby BMCCOLL » Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:01 am

Alan Brown wrote:Sounds like a good piece of research Brian, can you put my name down for a copy.
Alan


Alan, I've uncovered a few anomalies within the English results that are at odds with the tables published elsewhere. Several of the 'final' placings have been found to be in error for a start.

I've also been in contact with the Football League and the National Football Museum at Wembley about these and they have been most co-operative, helping out and giving advice. Although publishing the final tables in their yearbooks throughout WW2, The FL can't confirm or deny the credulity of the results, obviously because of the conditions at the time. There has been some inconsistencies within these, for instance goals scored in extra time were recorded on one game for one club but not another, a Christmas Day match being noted for one club but ignored in the record of another, etc, etc. I have over the last few months ironed out these errors, thanks in no small way to Norman Nicol who has gone way out of his way in scrutinizing and correcting the (ongoing) manuscript.

To date I have the following more or less finalised

WW1
Football League &Southern League and national & local cup competitions 1914-15 to 1918-19
Irish football 1914-15 to 1918-19 (I am missing numerous dates/results though)
Scottish football 1914-15 to 1918-19 ( I am missing a number of dates/results concerning the Eastern and Western Leagues which I hope to uncover before publication)

WW2
All Football League results
Western Regional League 1940-41
Scottish/Southern/NE League and Cups
All English and Scottish local cup results
Irish leagues and cups
Matches involving those clubs excluded from the mainstream leagues, eg Norwich City, Aston Villa

I intend to have the final manuscript ready in April, so all going well a May printing on the cards... hopefully!
http://scottish-football-historical-archive.co.nf
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Partick Thistle » Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:22 pm

scottish wrote:Richard sends this:
Airdrie v Killie on 10th September was Airdrie's home fixture. Killie v Airdrie was due to be played on 8th April, but was postponed because Killie played Celtic in a Friendly at Rugby Park instead. Therefore match on 13th May at Airdrie was Killie's "home" fixture.


Very re-assuring, thanks indeed. One 1892-93 table is now ready to be nailed to perfection. This keeps my tables in order - there have been many instances of this over the years affecting several tables which feature Thistle and I've managed to keep them all in line (to my spec) i.e. designated home in the home column. Talking of which, further to our e-mail work on the Thistle season of 1908-09, the very helpful John Litster was able to underline our findings by virtue of producing the Athletics Annual from 1908 which had the forthcoming season's fixture schedules all nicely laid out in home and away form. Richard probably already has the knowledge but extra verification never goes amiss:
15.08.1908 Kilmarnock v Partick Thistle (Thistle's away game at Rugby Park)
27.02.1909 Partick Thistle v Kilmarnock (Thistle's home game at Rugby Park)

John's running a full feature on Thistle's nomadic season in his next magazine which will set more than a few databases straight in regards to this issue.
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Partick Thistle » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:25 pm

Alliance 1892-93
Ok, I've put some solid graft into this - labour intensive but an exceedingly easy task thanks to the SFHA grid sitting there as a ready made template.

I decided to take a chronological run through the press archives and made it worth my while by picking up opposing team line ups, goal scoring sequences, half-times etc for all the Partick Thistle games, so it all time well spent as far as I'm concerned.

I managed to tick off all 90 games in the Alliance for this season.

I find all 90 of the dates in the SFHA grid to be correct (including Kilmarnock 1 Airdrieonians 6 yet to be added).

I find that 3 results need to be corrected as follows (SFHA result in brackets):
22.04.1893 Kilmarnock 2 Northern 3 (3-2)
24.09.1892 Glasgow Thistle 1 Linthouse 2 (0-2)
03.12.1892 Cambuslang 4 Northern 4 (1-1)

BMCCOLL wrote:The table was taken from the John Weir's Cowlairs history. This was no doubt also copied from an old yearbook or newspaper.

The 3 corrections as above show John Weir's table to be not too bad in error. All W-D-L totals now check out as do all the Pts totals. Only the F-A columns are astray (a few with just the odd goal). Also, 5 of the 10 teams were completely perfect.

BMCCOLL wrote:The results on the site which are in italics are ones not reported as being Alliance, but had fitted in with the general fixture lists.

I kept a close eye out for any quotes but, alas, could find 0/4. I also kept an eye out for games which could potentially contradict but found none, so that's also good news. I'm certain that you could straighten out 18 February 1893, Partick Thistle 5 Linthouse 2. Our home Alliance game with them was originally scheduled for Sat-24-Dec-1892 but was demoted to friendly status due to the frost. This is well reported. I have a good overview of all of Thistle's 40 first team fixtures this season and can tell you that we played them only 3 times in total - once in the Christmas eve friendly and the other two in the Alliance as per your grid details.
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Partick Thistle » Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:45 pm

Before I finalise any tables I'd like to make sure I've got the Alliance story straight, since I like to make side statement notes ("elected", "not-elected", "resigned" etc etc). Having looked at the situation I must say it's clearly the most complicated League for seasonal movement that Thistle have ever been involved in. I've written a small report and I wonder if any of you knowledgeable gentlemen would be able to cast your eyes over it and find it to be true or otherwise?

The Alliance was formed on 26th February 1891 by eleven member clubs - Partick Thistle, Glasgow Thistle, Northern, Clyde, Linthouse, East Stirlingshire, Port Glasgow Athletic, Greenock Morton, Kilmarnock, Airdrieonians, and Leith Athletic, all united in their disgust at the selfishness of those Scottish clubs who had formed the Scottish League the season before and, almost overnight, had become elitist to the detriment of the Scottish game in general. An open space was left for Queen’s Park, but they declined to accept. There were many applicants and invitees for the twelfth place including Kings Park, Glasgow Wanderers, Pollokshaws, Royal Albert, Ayr, Kilbirnie, Falkirk and Edinburgh Northern. The constitution of the Alliance was formally framed along the same lines as the Scottish League on 19th March 1891 when Ayr FC became the twelfth member club. At the end of season 1890-91, before the Alliance competition had began, Clyde and Leith Athletic were invited to join the Scottish League and duly resigned their Alliance membership. St Bernards, who had been dropped by the Scottish League, were invited to join the Alliance, and accepted. King’s Park, who had been most favoured behind Ayr from the earlier meeting, were also invited and accepted.

Thus, Ayr FC, Airdrieonians, East Stirlingshire, Glasgow Thistle, Kilmarnock, King's Park, Linthouse, Morton, Northern, Partick Thistle, Port Glasgow Athletic and St Bernards competed in the inaugural competition of 1891-92.

At the end of the first season, two clubs (King’s Park and Ayr) declared their intention to resign from the Alliance and former Scottish League clubs Cowlairs and Cambuslang accepted invitations to join. Of the other 10 clubs who remained, 4 were asked to join the election ballot for 1892-93 membership - Morton, St Bernard's, Port Glasgow Athletic and East Stirlingshire. They were joined in this ballot by five new applicants including Albion Rovers, Arthurlie, Hurlford, Vale of Leven and Glasgow Wanderers. At the first AGM of the new Alliance on 16th June 1892, it was formally decided that the League would be reduced to 10 member clubs. Tellingly, a new rule was made for the forthcoming season - that all visiting clubs’ guarantees were to be paid within ten days of the game. The votes were then cast for the nine clubs applying for membership, with the result being that Vale of Leven and St Bernard's were elected, completing the 10 club membership for 1892-93.

At the end of season 1892-93 St Bernard’s, who had finished seven points behind Cowlairs, the champions, were elected to the Scottish League, thus sparking a summer of political discontent within the Alliance, mostly fuelled by contentious debates on whether or not the body should amalgamate with the Scottish League as a Second Division, and, if so, who should or shouldn’t be involved. Post-election June 1893, the Alliance line up for 1893-94 had been decided as Airdrieonians, Cambuslang, Cowlairs, Kilmarnock, Linthouse, Morton, Northern, Partick Thistle, Port Glasgow, and Glasgow Thistle. However, this would soon be ripped apart as the clubs were divided by arguments. In the end up, the Scottish League pro-actively settled matters by creating their own Second Division which was duly formed by an election process. All ten of the would-be 1893-94 Alliance line-up were involved in the process. Of these, Cowlairs, Partick Thistle, Port Glasgow Athletic, Morton, Northern and Glasgow Thistle were elected as Scottish Football League clubs. This left the Alliance with only four remaining members - Linthouse, Airdrieonians, Kilmarnock and Cambuslang, the former three being the last of the eleven founding members. Scunnered, Kilmarnock and Linthouse dropped out, leaving Airdrieonians as the sole original member to continue into a third season. The ironically named Alliance was in tatters…
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Scottish » Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:02 pm

Admittedly it's been a while since I checked this and no doubt Richard Cairns will let me know if I am in error, but I think Killie, having finished ninth of ten in the Alliance in 1892-93, took the decision to drop down a level to the Ayrshire Combination before the legalisation of professionalism and the formation of the Second Division and that they did not apply for entry into the latter. Killie turned professional at the end of 1893-94.
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Boris57 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:51 am

Re Leith Athletic's involvement in the setting up of the proposed Scotttish Alliance. They certainly seemed to have been commited at the outset & at a meeting on 28 March 1891 the Leith Athletic honorary secretary - John Grieve - was elected to the post of Vice-President of the new Scottish Alliance. By May though they had hung their hat on election to the Scottish League with 3 places to be filled & they did indeed get one of those places in June. The local paper stated that the Hearts representative at the meeting had "advocated" Leith's application & it was that endorsement that had ensured that Leith were elected into the Scottish League by a 10 vote margin.
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby Skyline Drifter » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:05 pm

Excuse my bumbling around in an area I know nothing about but going through the QoS Minute Books for 1926 there are references to Alliance fixtures. Did an entirely different Alliance come into being somewhere around that time or did the one referred to here stumble along for a further 30 years? Or is it indeed just a way of referring to reserve games, as I suspect the matches appear to be played by the Reserves or "A" team.
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Re: Scottish Alliance

Postby BMCCOLL » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:30 pm

There were a number of versions over the years.

This series of pages at the SFHA http://scottish-football-historical-archive.com/scottishalliance.htm will explain a bit...
http://scottish-football-historical-archive.co.nf
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