Hall of Fame

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Alan Brown
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Hall of Fame

Post by Alan Brown » Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:08 am

Good to see Ally MacLeod finally being recognised for his efforts. Also Bobby Brown who is still going strong at 92!

Snuff
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Re: Hall of Fame

Post by Snuff » Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:10 pm

I was going to raise this one myself. Nothing against the five new inductees, but, we are more than a decade into the Hall of Fame, and I still see one or two glaring omissions - particularly among some of the older former internationalists.

I understand the "selection committee" includes several "distinguished football writers". I reckon the Lap Top Loyal and the Celtic apologists are getting their favourites in, to the exclusion of worthier potential inductees.

For instance - why is Bob Gardner, the first Scottish internationalist and captain still not inducted?

What does Jimmy McMullan,captain of the Wembley Wizards have to do to get the nod? Similarly, is Alec Jackson's hat-trick for the Wizards, leaving aside his other exploits, not worthy of induction?

Indeed, given the iconic status of the Wizards, the 1967 Wembley team, the Lisbon Lions, Barcelona Bears and the Gothenburg Greats - why are some, but not all, of these great teams inducted.

It is all very well inducting Hughie Gallacher, Alan Morton, Law and Baxter, John Greig and Willie Miller and Gordon Strachan, but, they couldn't have won these games without the "lesser lights" in the teams.

I can think of one or two regulars on here who could offer more to the selectors than some of the fans with lap tops who do have a say.
Snuff

Rob R
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Re: Hall of Fame

Post by Rob R » Tue Oct 20, 2015 6:08 pm

What about Tommy Ring ?

Shawfield Boy
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Re: Hall of Fame

Post by Shawfield Boy » Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:08 am

Being a bit pedantic I thought it better we bring Tommy (or my other though Pat Travers) into the Clyde Hall of Fame before we go for the SFA Hall of Fame, but not necessarily so will look again at a nomination.

Bobby Brown is indeed going strong, and his interview with Dougie Donnelly was great. I managed a short chat with him about one of his peer group Jock Brown, but had to cut it short when proceedings started again. It would be good to be able to sit down with these guys and reminisce.

Snuff
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Re: Hall of Fame

Post by Snuff » Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:47 am

A wee bit off-topic here, but, while ah kent whit he meant, Shawfield Boy sparked off another bee in my bonnet by referring to the Scottish Football Hall of Fame as "the SFA Hall of Fame".

The SFA Hall of Fame is an entirely different animal. Entry to the SFAHOF is restricted to those (male) players who have played more than 50 full internationals for Scotland. I would suggest there are members of the SFAHOF who will never, in some cases should never be admitted to the Scottish Football Hall of Fame (SHHOF).

But, what really does my head about the SFAHOF is - it appears to be a men only establishment.

Last night, on the main BBC Scotland evening news, we had film of Ifeome Dieke and Jo Love, the two women caps centurions showing-off their special caps to celebrate their 100 full interntionals for the Scotland women's team. These awards were made as a result of a UEFA initiative.

If it had been left to the SFA, I doubt if either they, nor our other women caps centurions such as Gemma Fay, Kim Little or Julie Fleeting, who will also receive special caps, would be honoured.

None of these ladies are in the SFAHOF. Indeed, some of our current women's squad, such as Jennifer Beattie, who has 89 caps, are not in the SFAHOF, while some male payers, with fewer caps, but still more than 50 are.

Equality in Scottish fitba is indeed a strange beast. Gary Caldwell is in the SFAHOF, genuine world-class superstars such as Little or Fleeting are not.
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lbb
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Re: Hall of Fame

Post by lbb » Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:34 pm

World class at what, though? Certainly not the game that the men are playing. I do not dissent with any criticism of Gary Clodwell but the reality is that he played at a much, much higher level of football for Scotland than those ladies, or indeed most people, ever will. The purpose of any Hall of Fame - and I think they quickly become exhausted of genuine candidates anyway - is surely to recognise exceptional achievement. In that case, you cannot class all levels and standards of the game as equal.

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Re: Hall of Fame

Post by Snuff » Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:56 pm

Ibb -

Since men and women cannot play in the same match, your argument about standards is spurious.

The Scottish Women's team plays in exactly the same competitions - for their gender - as does the Scottish Men's team. Of course, the Men's game is of a higher standard, I would expect, if the Scottish Men played the Scottish Women, they would win with goals to spare.

However, given that the SFA enters both Men's and Women's teams in the UEFA Championships and the World Cup, given "caps" are awarded regardless of gender, then it is surely wrong that Men who win 50-plus caps should be admitted to the SFA Hall of Fame, but Women who win the same number of caps do not.

Representing one's country in 50 internationals is an exceptional achievement, as such, it should be recognised - regardless of gender.
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Skyline Drifter
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Re: Hall of Fame

Post by Skyline Drifter » Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:32 am

Snuff wrote:Ibb -

Since men and women cannot play in the same match, your argument about standards is spurious.

The Scottish Women's team plays in exactly the same competitions - for their gender - as does the Scottish Men's team. Of course, the Men's game is of a higher standard, I would expect, if the Scottish Men played the Scottish Women, they would win with goals to spare.

However, given that the SFA enters both Men's and Women's teams in the UEFA Championships and the World Cup, given "caps" are awarded regardless of gender, then it is surely wrong that Men who win 50-plus caps should be admitted to the SFA Hall of Fame, but Women who win the same number of caps do not.

Representing one's country in 50 internationals is an exceptional achievement, as such, it should be recognised - regardless of gender.
But it isn't really an "exceptional achievement" in women's football. Your own posts show that.

I'm not particularly clued up on the womens team but it seems clear they play a lot more often than their male counterparts and therefore to similarly honour 50 appearances would be ludicrous. A quick look at Wikipedia (ok, it's Wiki but I presume it's not miles wrong) suggests our goalkeeper has 185 caps at the age of 33. Kim Little has 110 caps at the age of 25! Five of the most recent squad are cap centurions and a further five have over 70, and you can add Fleeting too. It would utterly devalue the achievements of their male counterparts to allow female entry at 50 caps. Clearly they would soon flood the membership.

I'm not against inclusion of women per se. If it's an SFA Hall of Fame then there is a good argument to be had for including them in some manner but to do so on the identical criteria would clearly be inequitable as far as I'm concerned.

Snuff
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Re: Hall of Fame

Post by Snuff » Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:45 am

Much as I hate to disagree with my old mate Skyline Drifter, but, I have to.

We can argue all we want about comparative standards of women's and men's football. But, facts are chiels that wanna ding:

It is fact - the Scottish Men's and Women's teams are both under the management of the SFA
both play in UEFA and FIFA-sanctioned internationals.
The SFA award "caps" for selection in both Men's and Women's internationals.

BUT -

If a man plays in 50 UEFA or FIFA-sanctioned internationals, he gets into the SFA Hall of Fame
If a woman plays in 50 UEFA or FIFA-sanctioned international, she does not.

THIS HAS TO BE UNFAIR

Arguments about the number of internationals played are spurious, it might be argued, if the Men's team played together as often as the Women's team does, maybe we would LIKE THE WOMEN - be in the Top 20 nations on the FIFA rankings, instead of number 40, where we currently are.

Skyline Drifter mentioned Gemma Fay having played 185 internationals, in 17 years, maybe this is testimony to Gemma's consistency, consistency of selection, or, lack of alternatives.

Jim Leighton's international career lasted 16-years, during which he played in 91 of 143 Scotland games; Kenny Dalgleish's Scotland career also lasted 17 years, in which he played in 102 of 140 Scotland games; Denis Law's Scotland career lasted four months short of 16 years, in which he played in 55 of 111 Scotland games. Given the Women's team (we are agreed) play more internationals - these three players might, with greater consistency of selection, and in Law's case fewer injuries, have played as many internationals as Gemma.

My basic point is - the SFA select and manage both the Men's and Women's teams - but, in terms of official SFA recognition, they are treated differently - this is wrong and unfair.
Snuff

Skyline Drifter
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Re: Hall of Fame

Post by Skyline Drifter » Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:57 am

I think we're just fundamentally disagreed here Snuff. I haven't made any comment on the relative standards of women's football compared to mens, that was lbb. I don't think it's overly relevant to the debate to be honest. But given your own stated criteria of Hall of Fame recognising "exceptional achievement" then the fact over half the current women's squad have over 70 caps, a total only five male players have managed in over 100 years, illustrates there is nothing remotely exceptional in the women doing so and to recognise them as making an equal achievement as their male counterparts would, for me be much more unfair. Lets just re-emphasise that point for a second. There are twice as many women in the current Scottish international squad with over 70 caps than there have been men in the entire 143 year history of the international game. And you want to recognise that "achievement" on a equal basis? That's madness.

I'm not convinced of the argument that they need a joint Hall of Fame anyway. What's to stop there being separate Halls of Fame for the men and women? They don't play together, why should they be collectively honoured? If you want them collectively honoured then, for me, the number of appearances for the women would have to be much higher. Since you'd never in a million years get universal agreement on what that number should be, and you'd still get the "it's unfair the men get in on 50 appearances" shouts anyway, then I'd have thought creation of a separate Hall of Fame would make more sense.

If you want to campaign for the women having their own Hall of Fame then I'm right behind you. I'd leave it to better experts than I to determine how many caps they should get to be in it. If they want to make it 50 that's fine though it does appear there will very quickly be an awful lot of members. I don't however believe they should get joint recognition for 50 caps in the same Hall of Fame.

ScottishFA
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Re: Hall of Fame

Post by ScottishFA » Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:24 pm

We're going over old ground here with this argument, but it may be meaningless as I get the impression the SFA have quietly dropped the 50 caps 'Roll of Honour' thing. It is no longer on their website and basically all that remains is a board in the Museum with a list of player names.

Also, presentations for women reaching 50 and 100 caps have actually been going on for several years. See this from 2007, for example on Rhonda Jones reaching 50 caps and Julie Fleeting reaching 100: http://scottishfa.co.uk/scottish_fa_new ... ewsID=3135

And this in 2009 for Ifeoma Dieke reaching 50 caps: http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish_fa ... ewsID=4641

Happy now?

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Re: Hall of Fame

Post by lbb » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:21 pm

I guess the SFA one is at least honest. Sun Jihai inducted into the English Hall of Fame.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/footba ... useum.html

Snuff
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Re: Hall of Fame

Post by Snuff » Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:13 pm

Scottish FA asked:
Happy now?


In two words: not exactly.

I welcome the recognition given to the girls, as outlined, but, while the SFA did do this, and good on them, it might well be that some of the guys in the mainstream media are unreconstructed dinosaurs. I know at least one Sports Editor, who hates Women's football with a passion and almost only mentions the girls at gunpoint.

I still believe, the same criteria should be used -if a man gets 50 caps, he's in, ditto a woman who gets 50 caps.

Still, as Scottish FA has suggested, if the SFA has quietly sidelined their Hall of Fame, the argument is spurious.
Snuff

HibeeJibee
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Re: Hall of Fame

Post by HibeeJibee » Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:05 pm

As noted by ScottishFA - it doesn't seem like the SFA actually make anything of the 'Roll of Honour' or whatever it was called latterly. I've no doubt that this is in part due to the fact that the increased number of internationals per annum over the last 20yrs or so has 'flooded' what was a fairly elite group with what would now be considered fairly unremarkable players... the great Alan Hutton will enter the corridors of accolade upon earning his next cap, as will Scott Brown, and the likes of Craig Gordon and Shaun Maloney aren't far behind. There was already the situation that only 3 from 28 hung-up their international boots before 1980.

For similar reasons, if heavily promoted there would have to be a separate Womens equivalent, IMO - as the far higher number of internationals they play per annum would similarly 'flood' the composition. Half of the current Scotland Womens squad surpass 50 caps right now.

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