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Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:13 pm
by BMCCOLL
I have added a new listing of Junior clubs at http://geocities.com/br1anmccoll/juniorclublist.htm.

As can be seen, it is grossly incomplete! :lol:

I've used numerous publications and references to populate this list, but as it is still 90% incomplete, I'm also 90% sure that it will never be finished!

Many thanks to honestman for supplying his list of juniors. I'm currently consolidating his data with mine, but it may take time - there are roughly 2000 clubs involved!

Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:43 pm
by BMCCOLL
My expanded Junior list is now uploaded to http://geocities.com/br1anmccoll/juniorclublist.htm.

As can be seen, it accounts for over 2000 clubs. Again many thanks to honestman for his help.

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:40 pm
by Scottish
A bit more on the various Kilmarnock clubs. Although the cricket club was indeed founded in 1852 as per your list they never played any football until the split with Killie in 1877.

Going through some old SFH articles I came across one from Richard Cairns on the various Kilmarnock Athletics. He says there was a third team of that name (though they would be the second chronologically). Kilmarnock Brittania adopted the Athletic name in May 1886 and lasted for a season. They didn't play at the previous club's Holm Quarry ground and had no connection to them.

Rosebank then took over the name and played at Holm Quarry from December 1888-March 1899.

Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:18 pm
by BMCCOLL
Thanks for the notes on the Kilmarnock clubs, David. I've all the SFHs to date, so I've no idea how I missed Kilmarnock Athletic/Britannia!
I've recently borrowed Jackie Heaney's lists from Stewart Davidson and am currently going through them. Any missing from my records will be added. Once completed, I intend to split the lists alphabetically to make it easier, and quicker to load.
Once again thanks for the input

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:23 pm
by BMCCOLL
The senior clubs from Jackie's list have now been collated into mine, and has been posted onto the Scottish Football History site at http://geocities.com/br1anmccoll.

I've now turned my attention to the Junior list. Jackie's work runs to 80 pages and I'm afraid it will take time to work into my list. Therefore, due to the great number of clubs involved, I'm afraid there'll be no more updates to this until this has been completed.

Meantime, I must extend my thanks to all who have contacted me with additional data, and hope they will continue to do so. These lists are, and probably always will be, a work in progress!

:D

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:12 pm
by Scottish
Just had a quick look at the re-election page Brian. Abercorn WERE elected in 1896 and the final ballot in 1974 was Ferranti 21, Inverness Thistle 16

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:39 pm
by BMCCOLL
Oops! on the Abercorn scenario!

Big Q on the Wishaw club's entries.

I have:
Wishaw [2], location Wishaw, formed 1885, entered Cup 1888 - 1920
as Wishaw Thistle {1] 1885-1900
as Wishaw United 1900-1903
as Wishaw Amateurs 1903-1906
as Wishaw Thistle [2] 1906-1919

However Jackie's list has
Wishaw, formed 1879, merged with Wishaw Thistle (1885-1900) (previously Juniors) in 1900 to form Wishaw United (1900-1903).
Wishaw Amateurs were a seperate club altogether (1903-1906).
And Wishaw Thistle formed in 1906 becoming Wishaw Juniors after the War.

Any-one cast any light on this?

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:11 pm
by Scottish
Just looking at that massive junior list. You have a team from Dundonald, Ayrshire in the 1890s. Is there a source for that? And any indication of which competitions they played in? I've always been under the impression that Dundonald never had a team above amateur level and that only intermittently.

Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:51 am
by BMCCOLL
I'm unsure where I originally saw the reference as I've used countless histories in its compilation, but I'll endeavour to track it down. However, Jackie Heaney also has a reference to Dundonald, also from Ayrshire, being formed in 1893. It is possible they were a juvenile club.

On a recent posting I stated there'll be no more updates to the Junior list until I've collated all of my data with Jackie's. However I've decided to upload the files as I go thru' them alphabetically. The finished sections will be highlighted in blue. I must stress tho' that these sections will also be susceptible to changes as I work thru' the lists.

I also intend to break the list into alphabetical sections for easier access when I've finished.

Thanks for your patience and help in making this list as comprehensive as possible.

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:59 pm
by honestman
According to my own records I have Dundonald playing in the 1893/94 Irvine and District Cup, a bye in the 1st round followed by an 8-0 defeat from Troon Academicals. This is the only reference I have of Dundonald playing at that level.

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 5:29 pm
by Scottish
Very probably a short-lived juvenile side then. In his 'Story of Ayrshire Junior Football' Drew Cochrane mentions the close relationship beween juniors and juveniles in the 1890s. He lists the members of the first juvenile league in 1896 - the Irvine & District - with all the teams coming from Irvine, Kilwinning, Stevenston, Saltcoats & Dalry. No Dundonald.

He also has Troon Academicals having changed their name to Troon Athletic by the time of the first Irvine & District Cup in 1891-92. That's borne out by an (unsigned) article on football in Troon in Stewart Davidson's 'Non-league histories' series.

There's no mention of a junior football team in the late Robert Kirk's 'Pictorial History of Dundonald' and Robert was a great fitba fan - being a season ticket holder at Rugby Park for many years.

AFAIK there's only ever been one football pitch in Dundonald and it's never really had a proper name, simply being referred to as 'the pitch,' 'the field.' 'the park' and such like. It doesn't appear on the OS maps of 1856 or 1906

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 5:44 pm
by honestman
It is more than likely that Dundonald were indeed a juvenile side as I have come across other juvenile clubs playing in recognised Junior competitions around this same period.

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:14 pm
by Scottish
honestman wrote:It is more than likely that Dundonald were indeed a juvenile side
Aye, that's the only possible explanation for getting humped by a team from Troon :!: :!: :!:

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:11 pm
by honestman
Just a further note with regards to Junior clubs from Troon, Troon Athletic did not appear until just after the First World War. Troon Academicals played during the 1890's and Troon Rangers appeared in the early 1900's. The article that appeared in the Scottish Non League Histories may have been based on notes of my own that appeared in a Junior match programme from some years back when I wrongly stated that Troon Athletic existed during the 1890's.

Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:23 pm
by Scottish
The article appeared in 2002. Bernard Stocks 'The Winners' (2000)can't have drawn on that and Drew Cochrane's book which refers to "Troon Athletic, formerly the Academicals" was published in 1989.

Was your article before these? If so then it's a likely source. If not then there's a problem.