Most top division championship winners medals

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bobby s
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Most top division championship winners medals

Post by bobby s » Wed May 09, 2007 12:34 pm

Did I word that right?

I know who wins a medal is probably difficult to work out going back x years, but who won the most?

I'm guessing that Bobby Lennox of Celtic won 10, as perhaps did Ally McCoist.

Anyone win more? is there a toplist?

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Post by Scottish » Wed May 09, 2007 12:58 pm

Oddly enough I've been chatting about this with Forrest Robertson who tells me there's a Lisbon Lions 40th anniversary bash which claims Bobby Lennox won 11.

Now, I have no wish to disparage Bobby Lennox who is one of the most unassuming folk around and certainly not one given to bragging about his considerable achievements in the game but I reckon he has 'only' the nine won in succession from 1966-1974. Although he remained at Parkhead for several more seasons he didn't play enough games in title-winning seasons to qualify for a medal.

Jimmy McMenemy of Celtic has 11 but I make David Meiklejohn of Rangers the record holder with 12.

Post-war, it's Richard Gough with 10 (9 Rangers, 1 Dundee United)

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Post by Tom Brogan » Wed May 09, 2007 1:08 pm


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Post by Scottish » Wed May 09, 2007 1:22 pm

I doubt very much that he has. This seems similar to the Lennox claim which seems to hinge on assuming a player who has taken part in only a few games still being awarded a medal.

In 1998-99 Ferguson made just four league starts for Rangers and came on nine times as a sub. No fewer than twenty players started more league games for Rangers that season.

Now, I don't know what the minimum number of games is to qualify these days. I think it used to be at least 50%. Nor am I aware of whether there is still a maximum number of medals awarded though there certainly used to be.

But I would think it extremely unlikely Ferguson won a medal for this season. There may well be others. He played in fewer than half the games played in four of the nine in a row seasons.

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Post by Tom Brogan » Wed May 09, 2007 1:35 pm

Isn't the current requirement ten games? I seem to recall reading something about Paul Hartley needing a few games to qualify. Be nice to know what the minimum requirement was through the years.

Here's a thread on most league wins from The Guardian's Knowledge column, though I don't think everything in it can be taken as fact, as I don't think they fact check every answer that comes in. A lot of their queries get corrected and added to as the weeks go on.

http://football.guardian.co.uk/theknowl ... 78,00.html

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Post by Scottish » Wed May 09, 2007 1:46 pm

I recall something similar. But could that mean no starts and ten last-minute subs wins a medal while nine full games doesn't? If so then in theory ten minutes play during a season is enough for a medal and 810 isn't!

For some time now I've been advocating a restructuring of appearance records to a 'full game equivalent' - i.e. minutes spent on the field of play divided by 90.

Otherwise it leaves us with anomalies such as - to take one prominent example - Jim Leighton credited with a full appearance in the 2000 Scottish Cup Final and Robbie Winters as a sub even though Leighton was forced to leave the field after three minutes and Winters played for 87 -longer than six of the 22 starters.

Youre right about the Guardian site though. That particular query needs upgrading. Ryan Giggs has just won his ninth title medal.

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Post by Tom Brogan » Wed May 09, 2007 1:59 pm

You’re totally right regarding the minutes on the park as opposed to games appeared in. I suppose when minimum requirements were first established there were smaller squads, less substitutes allowed and fewer players took part over the course of a season. It’s perhaps something that needs to be revised.

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Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Wed May 09, 2007 2:02 pm

Outwith the top division, I think only 3 players have won 5 championship medals - Dave Bingham - 1st Division with St.Johnstone (1989-90), Dunfermline (1995-96) & Inverness CT (2003-04), 2nd Division with Livingston (1998-99) & 3rd Division with Gretna (2004-05), John Hughes - 1st Division with Falkirk (1990-91, 1993-94, 2002-03 & 2004-05[player/manager]) & with Hibs (1998-99), Derek Fleming - 1st Division with Dunfermline (1995-96), Dundee (1996-97), Livingston (2000-01) & Partick Thistle (2001-02) & 2nd Division with Livingston (1998-99). I haven`t checked this season`s Champions` players to update (if necessary) these statistics. I agree re Meiklejohn & Ferguson although the former played 10 games in his 1st season 1919-20 & didn`t pick up a Championship gong.

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Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Wed May 09, 2007 2:06 pm

In the 16 seasons from 1920-21 to his retirement @ the end of 1935-36, Meiklejohn collected 12 Championship & 4 runners up medals.

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Post by Skyline Drifter » Thu May 10, 2007 2:46 pm

I don't know about the SPL and I don't know what it was historically in the SFL but I can say for definite that in the SFL now there are no minimums to receive a medal. The divisional champions receive 20 medals to distribute and can do whatever the hell they want with them at their own discretion. They can give one to the tea lady if it suits them to do so. They can also buy additional medals should they wish to reward more than 20 individuals.

When we won the second division in 2002 the 20 medals went to the 20 players with most appearances who were still with the club at that point, which meant Warren Hawke and Jon Sunderland who had both made more appearances than George O'Boyle for instance didn't get a medal because they had subsequently departed whilst O'Boyle did. In addition we had three additional medals struck, two for sub keepers who never actually played and one for the club museum where it still is.

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Post by nightfire » Thu May 10, 2007 4:52 pm

The 2 other League winning campaigns that Bobby played in are as follows:

In Season 1976/77, Bobby played in only 2 league games and appeared as a substitute in 3 other league matches.

In Season 1978/79, Bobby played in 6 league games and appeared as a substitute in 8 other league matches

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Post by nightfire » Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:58 pm

In the modern era it would seem to be the case that a minimum number of games needs to have been played before the SPL will award a Championship medal.

However, I would expect clubs to provide medals to players who have played less than the required number of games (no matter the number) and it would not be unreasonable to then expect the Club Records to show a Championship medal was won by the player (e.g. Bobby Lennox)

Another more poignant example is Peter Johnstone who played only 2 League games in Season 1916/17 for Celtic (Celtic The Complete Record) when Celtic won the Title. Unfortunately, later that season Peter was "killed in action" in France. I would suggest that it is fair for Club Records to show that Peter won a medal for that season.

I also wonder whether pre-WWII there was a minimum number of games a player needed to play before getting a medal.

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Post by Skyline Drifter » Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:53 pm

LEATHERSTOCKING wrote:Outwith the top division, I think only 3 players have won 5 championship medals - Dave Bingham - 1st Division with St.Johnstone (1989-90), Dunfermline (1995-96) & Inverness CT (2003-04), 2nd Division with Livingston (1998-99) & 3rd Division with Gretna (2004-05), John Hughes - 1st Division with Falkirk (1990-91, 1993-94, 2002-03 & 2004-05[player/manager]) & with Hibs (1998-99), Derek Fleming - 1st Division with Dunfermline (1995-96), Dundee (1996-97), Livingston (2000-01) & Partick Thistle (2001-02) & 2nd Division with Livingston (1998-99). I haven`t checked this season`s Champions` players to update (if necessary) these statistics. I agree re Meiklejohn & Ferguson although the former played 10 games in his 1st season 1919-20 & didn`t pick up a Championship gong.
Just noticed that as the other post bumped this thread back to the top.

It's quite possible that Bingham got a 2nd division or first division medal from Gretna in 05/06 and 06/07 as well is it not? Do you know for a fact that he didn't?

I think he only played a couple fo games with Gretna last season and he certainly finished the season on loan to Stirling Albion but he might have got a medal anyway. I don't know if he even played a game at all the year before with his illness but that still doesn't mean Gretna didn't award him a medal.

Bingham is now with us but I haven't got to know him at all yet. Don't think I've even spoken to him yet actually. If I do get a chance thogh I'll ask him.

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Post by fatbhoy » Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:17 pm

Tom Brogan wrote:Isn't the current requirement ten games? I seem to recall reading something about Paul Hartley needing a few games to qualify. Be nice to know what the minimum requirement was through the years.
I think you're spot on about PH mate, according to this link:

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/19042007/ ... medal.html

The minimum requirements must be contained in the SPL or SFL rules, no?

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Post by Skyline Drifter » Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:02 am

fatbhoy wrote:
Tom Brogan wrote:Isn't the current requirement ten games? I seem to recall reading something about Paul Hartley needing a few games to qualify. Be nice to know what the minimum requirement was through the years.
I think you're spot on about PH mate, according to this link:

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/19042007/ ... medal.html

The minimum requirements must be contained in the SPL or SFL rules, no?
As I've already said, there's NO MINIMUM REQUIREMENT in the SFL. I guess there probably is in the SPL though.

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