Scotland Caps below top level

Scottish Football Answers to Questions

Scotland Caps below top level

Postby Skyline Drifter » Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:45 am

Just as an aside to a discussion on another forum, does anyone know?

1 - When was the last time Scotland capped a player playing below the top league in Scotland (ie lower the the SPL, Premier Division or First Division, whichever was the top level at the time)? If it was a goalkeeper, when was the last non-goalkeeper?

2 - When did Scotland last cap a part-timer? That might be far more difficult to be definitive on.
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Postby Sat31March1928 » Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:25 am

Should be realtively easy to pick from this list.

http://www.londonhearts.com/scotland/pl ... atest.html

There were some lower English Division players picked by Berti.

I'll run a query against my database to assign 'Division' to the players capped to give a definitive answer.

Neil Alexander Cardiff City in

http://www.londonhearts.com/scotland/ga ... 60301.html
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Postby Sat31March1928 » Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:23 pm

I Need to check this but here is my initial results.

NB doesn't include teams non-league teams yet


Div Position in league that season

2 3 1894-95 Renton
2 3 1895-96 Renton
2 1 1897-98 Kilmarnock
2 8 1897-98 Airdrieonians
2 2 1946-47 Airdrieonians
2 1 1947-48 East Fife
2 1 1954-55 Airdrieonians
2 1 1956-57 Clyde
2 8 1959-60 Falkirk
2 1 1975-76 Partick Thistle
2 1 1994-95 Raith Rovers
2 2 1995-96 Dundee United


Players

Renton Robert Glen Sat 23 Mar 1895 Wales 2 Scotland 2
Renton William McColl Sat 23 Mar 1895 Wales 2 Scotland 2
Renton John Murray Sat 23 Mar 1895 Wales 2 Scotland 2

Renton Robert Glen Sat 21 Mar 1896 Scotland 4 Wales 0

Kilmarnock Robert Findlay Sat 19 Mar 1898 Scotland 5 Wales 2
Airdrieonians Matthew McLintock Scott Sat 19 Mar 1898 Scotland 5 Wales 2

Airdrieonians Robert Flavell Sun 18 May 1947 Belgium 2 Scotland 1
Airdrieonians Robert Flavell Sat 24 May 1947 Luxembourg 0 Scotland 6

East Fife David Millar Duncan Wed 28 Apr 1948 Scotland 2 Belgium 0
East Fife David Millar Duncan Mon 17 May 1948 Switzerland 2 Scotland 1
East Fife David Millar Duncan Sun 23 May 1948 France 3 Scotland 0

Airdrieonians John Livingstone (Ian) McMillan Sat 02 Apr 1955 England 7 Scotland 2

Clyde Thomas Ring Sat 06 Apr 1957 England 2 Scotland 1
Clyde Thomas Ring Wed 08 May 1957 Scotland 4 Spain 2
Clyde Thomas Ring Sun 19 May 1957 Switzerland 1 Scotland 2
Clyde Thomas Ring Wed 22 May 1957 West Germany 1 Scotland 3
Clyde Thomas Ring Sun 26 May 1957 Spain 4 Scotland 1

Falkirk John Anderson White Sat 03 Oct 1959 Northern Ireland 0 Scotland 4

Partick Thistle Alan Roderick Rough Wed 07 Apr 1976 Scotland 1 Switzerland 0
Partick Thistle Alan Roderick Rough Thu 06 May 1976 Scotland 3 Wales 1
Partick Thistle Alan Roderick Rough Sat 08 May 1976 Scotland 3 Northern Ireland 0
Partick Thistle Alan Roderick Rough Sat 15 May 1976 Scotland 2 England 1

Raith Rovers Steven Crawford Wed 24 May 1995 Scotland 2 Ecuador 1

Dundee United William McKinlay Wed 06 Sep 1995 Scotland 1 Finland 0
Dundee United William McKinlay Wed 11 Oct 1995 Sweden 2 Scotland 0
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Postby Skyline Drifter » Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:45 pm

Sat31March1928 wrote:Should be realtively easy to pick from this list.

http://www.londonhearts.com/scotland/pl ... atest.html

There were some lower English Division players picked by Berti.

I'll run a query against my database to assign 'Division' to the players capped to give a definitive answer.

Neil Alexander Cardiff City in

http://www.londonhearts.com/scotland/ga ... 60301.html


Sorry, I tried to be clear but maybe wasn't. I'm not interested in lower division in other countries. I know plenty English Championship players have been capped, including some currently, Graham Alexander to name but one.

I was meaning players playing in Scotland only but I see you've answered that anyway. I knew about Stevie Crawford though it's a questionable point whether or not he was a first division player at the time since Raith had just won promotion. I didn't know about McKinlay though.
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Postby the hibLOG » Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:57 pm

Must be Stevie Crawford's cap in May 1995 when Raith had just finished top of the First Division.

By the way Davie, just above Crawford you have Brian O'Neill winning a cap whilst playing for St Johnstone in April 2000. Was he on loan from Wolfsburg then? Can't find any record of him playing for St Johnstone at all.
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Postby Sat31March1928 » Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:15 pm

This is the list reduced to players making their debut

Renton Robert Glen Sat 23 Mar 1895 Wales 2 Scotland 2
Renton William McColl Sat 23 Mar 1895 Wales 2 Scotland 2
Renton John Murray Sat 23 Mar 1895 Wales 2 Scotland 2

Kilmarnock Robert Findlay Sat 19 Mar 1898 Scotland 5 Wales 2

Airdrieonians Matthew McLintock Scott Sat 19 Mar 1898 Scotland 5 Wales 2
Airdrieonians Robert Flavell Sun 18 May 1947 Belgium 2 Scotland 1
East Fife David Millar Duncan Wed 28 Apr 1948 Scotland 2 Belgium 0
Partick Thistle Alan Roderick Rough Wed 07 Apr 1976 Scotland 1 Switzerland 0
Raith Rovers Steven Crawford Wed 24 May 1995 Scotland 2 Ecuador 1

The ones in bold are where their team had not won promotion that season.
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Postby Sat31March1928 » Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:25 pm

the hibLOG wrote:Must be Stevie Crawford's cap in May 1995 when Raith had just finished top of the First Division.

By the way Davie, just above Crawford you have Brian O'Neill winning a cap whilst playing for St Johnstone in April 2000. Was he on loan from Wolfsburg then? Can't find any record of him playing for St Johnstone at all.


I'll do a cross check and get back to you.
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Postby Skyline Drifter » Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:42 pm

Sat31March1928 wrote:
the hibLOG wrote:Must be Stevie Crawford's cap in May 1995 when Raith had just finished top of the First Division.

By the way Davie, just above Crawford you have Brian O'Neill winning a cap whilst playing for St Johnstone in April 2000. Was he on loan from Wolfsburg then? Can't find any record of him playing for St Johnstone at all.


I'll do a cross check and get back to you.

Brian O'Neil has never played for St Johnstone. That error has appeared in a number of sources. Not sure why. I recall a St Johnstone supporting contact pointing it out somewhere previously.
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Postby the hibLOG » Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:07 pm

Skyline Drifter wrote:Brian O'Neil has never played for St Johnstone. That error has appeared in a number of sources. Not sure why. I recall a St Johnstone supporting contact pointing it out somewhere previously.


Confusion with John O'Neil perhaps who was at Saints at the time.
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Postby LEATHERSTOCKING » Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:13 pm

Last amateurs to be capped were Jimmy Crawford & Bob Gillespie (both Queen`s Park) vs. England in 1933. Gillespie was the team captain.
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Postby Scottish » Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:43 pm

Billy Mckinlay was definitely the last, being transferred to Blackburn two days after the match v Sweden in 1995. John White was the last from the old Second Division.

Both Rough and Crawford are in that limbo-land whereby their last league match before the caps Sat 31 mentions were in the 1st division and their next in the Premier, their clubs having secured promotion before the matches in question.
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Postby the hibLOG » Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:14 am

scottish wrote:Billy Mckinlay was definitely the last, being transferred to Blackburn two days after the match v Sweden in 1995. John White was the last from the old Second Division.

Both Rough and Crawford are in that limbo-land whereby their last league match before the caps Sat 31 mentions were in the 1st division and their next in the Premier, their clubs having secured promotion before the matches in question.


It's a bit nit-picky to put Rough and Crawford in 'limbo-land'. The fact is they were selected on the basis of performances in the lower league. You could equally argue that McKinlay's transfer to Blackburn meant he was obviously better than a lower league player and therefore just as much in 'limbo' when he played for Scotland.

It's obvious that many teams pushing for promotion from a lower league are often better than strugglers in the league above, but international selectors rarely take off the blinkers and judge players on ability rather than the level they are playing at.
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Postby LEATHERSTOCKING » Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:34 pm

Ach Leatherstocking, yer talking mince! The last Queen`s player "capped" was goalkeeper Bobby Brown vs. Belgium @ Hampden 23rd January 1946. This one IS a full International although it was erroneously classed as an unofficial War time one for more than 60 years.
Last amateurs to be capped were Jimmy Crawford & Bob Gillespie (both Queen`s Park) vs. England in 1933. Gillespie was the team captain.
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Postby exile » Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:35 pm

Well, it still is an unofficial international since the 1st Scottish season after the war was 1946-47.
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Postby Skyline Drifter » Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:51 pm

No contributions to the question of the last part-timer capped? I don't mean amateur, I mean player who also had another regular job. I presume there probably were such players capped in the 50's? I'd be fairly sure Billy Houliston was probably a part-timer when he played for Scotland whilst with us for instance.
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