Online Sources

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Re: Online Sources

Post by Scottish » Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:29 pm

I received this as an email from Tony Brown, whom most people here will be familiar with by reputation if not personally.

The National Football Archive at www.enfa.co.uk

I’m writing to you as a former subscriber to
‘allfootballers’ and ‘since1888’. I’m pleased to
announce a substantially enhanced service at www.enfa.co.uk.

The National Football Archive is
an ambitious project to link together many
aspects of the game in England. The first phase
uses the player database from ‘allfootballers’ to
fully index Soccerdata’s match-by-match line-up
and scorer data. The resulting database has been
christened “the ultimate database” for good
reason; it contains every League and Cup match
since 1888-89, a total of more than 400,000
line-ups, 41,000 players and 600,000 goal
scorers. It has taken nearly 20 years to assemble and validate the data.

As you would expect, the 22
players plus substitutes in any match can be
‘clicked-through’ to reveal their full playing
career at every club. Similarly, if looking at a
player’s complete match record, you are again
able to click-through to see the match
details. We include results and attendances, and
will add goal times and referees names as part of
our on-going maintenance project.

Many features of the site are
free to use, including results, dates, league
tables, and the analysis of all meetings between
any two clubs. We believe the data is the most
accurate and comprehensive on the web, based on
the fact that copies of Soccerdata databases form
the basis of many of them, and can be identified
by the unforced errors in older versions of the
data. The line-ups and full player details are
available for a daily subscription of £5 or an annual subscription of £32.


A later phase of development is
to add videos, newspaper reports and digitised
items such as match programmes to the
database. We do not own the copyright of these
items, and discussions will start with the owners
shortly. We hope that, in the not too far
distant future, your smart phone will allow you
to use the database to summon up match videos of
any games for which a recording exists.

Please visit the web site and
register in order to use the free sections. You
will also find an introductory offer that will
give you a taste of the complete offering.

Best wishes, Tony Brown


I registered this morning and the only thing which stopped me from signing up on an annual basis was the fact that they have had bad problems with their server. If and when that's sorted out this will be a fantastic resource for just over 60p were week

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Re: Online Sources

Post by Scottish » Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:05 am

Coupled with the news (posted by Alan Brown on the Scottish Football part of the forum) about John Litster's forthcoming pre-war Scottish players database, the ENFA site means we are entering a whole new era of historical information being readily available at affordable prices. I have just signed up for a year's subscription to ENFA as they seem to have their server problems fixed.

Once registered and logged in there is a left-hand menu with options of selecting matches, clubs, players, or meetings as well as a personal search history. To try it out I selected players. The options then are to search by the start of a surname and club. I selected Law & Any. This brought up a whole host of players starting with that surname but of course I found my target, first name Denis, on the first page. This brought up his birthdate, place of birth, position, debut, total appearances, total goals and even penalties scored. To my surprise Law scored just one penalty in his entire career, in 1957-58 (which shows just how good a striker he was when you think that many can rely on penalties to boost their totals. But I digress).

Beside this details tab are two others, career & season. Career brings up a seasonal account of club played for, where they finished in the league and FA Cup (but not League Cup), date of signing if there was a switch of club,(These are all given as the 1st of a month so I imagine it's more general than specific. This can be got round by clicking on the season where a move was made. You can then see individual matches for clubs played for). Then comes appearances & goals for league, cup & other followed by a club summary at the bottom and career totals for league, cup & other.

The season tab shows date, venue, match & result, competition, shirt number & goals scored if any. Clicking on any team brings that team's record up. Clicking on the result brings up the match in question. Thus we can see that Law made his debut on Monday December 24th 1956, in a Second Division match for Huddersfield Town, away to Notts County at Meadow Lane. Huddersfield won 2-1 (scorers given) in front of a crowd of 9,165. Law didn't score that day. Full line-ups are given for both teams and clicking on any player will take you to their career details.

I have two minor quibbles. The lack of an effective back button means you have to get into the habit of using your personal history to move back. And with League Cup, European and all other games classed simply as other you have to go into each season to find out which matches were played in these competitions. But overall this is an amazing site, superior to the old 11v11 and must have taken an incredible amount of time to research and assemble. There's a weekly option of £5 but this is worth £32 of anyone's money for a year, especially considering the costs of UK newspaper subscriptions.

Oh, the penalty. I can't find out which match that was scored in but I know it wasn't the FA Cup tie v Charlton Athletic on 4/1/58 (Law's only home goal that season). That leaves just four contenders - @ Derby 30/11/57, @ Lincoln 14/12/57, @ Swansea 22/2/58 & @ Sheffield United 8/3/58

Anyone who can find it, there's a cyber-pint on me.

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Re: Online Sources

Post by Scottish » Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:35 am

And just to show how amazing this site is. I've been clicking at random from player to player as the mood takes me and I've only just discovered that Kevin Keegan played in the last league match at Park Avenue, Bradford in 1970. He was in the Scunthorpe team which won 5-0. For those too young I should mention that when the name 'Bradford' is used in connection with match reports or results it's journalistic laziness. The club's full name is Bradford City and there used to be another league team by name of Bradford Park Avenue which played league football 1908-1970. once finishing as high as 9th in Division One. But latterly they ended up the way East Stirling were for much of the first decade of this century. In their last four seasons they finished second bottom then last three times on the trot. There was no automatic relegation from the bottom flight in those days but the last four had to seek re-election. It's often said that lower league clubs conspired to keep each other in the league but in truth the two bottom divisions were only 'associate members' of the league and had four votes in total while the 44 1st and 2nd division clubs all had one vote each so if anyone was keeping poor teams in the league it was the larger clubs.

At any rate they got fed up with Bradford PA finishing a mile behind the rest (8, 13 & 7 points respectively, 14, 17 & 11 if three points for a win had applied) and voted them out in favour of Cambridge United in 1970, the first rejection of a league club since the inexplicable vote to get rid of Gateshead ten years earlier. There had been one new club in the interim - Oxford United - but that was as a result of Accrington Stanley's collapse, not a vote of league members.

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Re: Online Sources

Post by HibeeJibee » Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:06 am

Sounds a fantastic resource... does it include details of wartime competitions (I'm expecting not, unfortunately) and representative games, most obviously national teams?

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Re: Online Sources

Post by Scottish » Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:16 am

No to both queries I'm afraid.

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Re: Online Sources

Post by Scottish » Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:18 am

Other than the FA Cup of 1945-46, which is regarded as official.

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Re: Online Sources

Post by HibeeJibee » Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:39 am

Cheers, thought not. I was recently thinking about buying the 2 volumes of "Football League Players Records" (1888-39 by Michael Joyce, and 1946-2005 by Barry Hugman).
I take it everything contained in them (and far more) will be in ENFA?

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Re: Online Sources

Post by Scottish » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:16 pm

Hugman & Joyce are both tremendous works which give club totals per player for league games and both give career totals for representative matches - which are not in ENFA. Where ENFA goes further is in giving seasonal and match-by-match details for players as well as for clubs.

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Re: Online Sources

Post by bluedragon » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:20 pm

scottish wrote:For those too young I should mention that when the name 'Bradford' is used in connection with match reports or results it's journalistic laziness. The club's full name is Bradford City and there used to be another league team by name of Bradford Park Avenue which played league football 1908-1970. once finishing as high as 9th in Division One.
Bradford Park Avenue are currently in Blue Square North in the English non-league pyramid so there is only one division and two promotions between them and a return to what would have been the "Football League" when they left it in 1970. The old Bradford PA ground was a gem! It was one of the football grounds that shared with cricket but did not share any part of the two playing pitches that were divided by an Archibald Leitch double-sided grandstand. The footlball side of the ground would have had a capacity of around 30,000 and the cricket ground between 15-20,000.

The Accrington Stanley story is better! As you say they went bust but locals would not let the name die and started another club in - I think! - local parks football that progressed slowly and steadily up the non-league structure to return to the "Football League".

The pyramid got rid of the re-election arrangements and a club can progress - subject to ground grading - all the way.

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Re: Online Sources

Post by jeroen » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:54 pm

scottish wrote:
Oh, the penalty. I can't find out which match that was scored in but I know it wasn't the FA Cup tie v Charlton Athletic on 4/1/58 (Law's only home goal that season). That leaves just four contenders - @ Derby 30/11/57, @ Lincoln 14/12/57, @ Swansea 22/2/58 & @ Sheffield United 8/3/58

Anyone who can find it, there's a cyber-pint on me.
I'll do (almost) anything for a pint: It was Derby 30/11/1957

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Re: Online Sources

Post by Scottish » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:26 am

jeroen wrote: I'll do (almost) anything for a pint: It was Derby 30/11/1957
Enjoy! Tony Brown tells me that penalties ARE being included and so far he is up to 1951-52. The absence of a back button is down to this being an easy way to steal web content and, understandably, he is keen to prevent this from happening. If I cut and paste the competitions covered I hope that's not regarded as content theft, rather free advertising!

Here's what's in it:

Football League, 1888-89 to date
Premier League 1992-93 to date
League test matches and play-offs
Expunged League games, following a club’s liquidation
The abandoned League season of 1939/40
FA Cup 1888-89 to date, including games played by League clubs in the qualifying and intermediate rounds
FA Cup third place games 1970 to 1974
Charity Shield and Community Shield
Football League Cup
The former Associate Members Cup, currently the Johnstone’s Paint Trophy
The Football League Group Cup and Trophy (1981-82 and 1982-83)
Full Members Cup 1985-86 to 1991-92
Anglo-Italian Cup 1970-73, 1993-96)
Anglo-Scottish Cup
Anglo-Italian League Cup Winners Cup (1970-72)
Anglo-Italian Cup Winners Cup (1975-76, 1976-77)
Screensport Super Cup
European Cup and Champions League
ICFC, UEFA Cup and Europa League
Inter Toto Cup
Football League Division Three Cup, North and South
Watney Cup
Texaco Cup
Debenhams Cup (1976-77, 1977-78)
Mercantile Credit Centenary Trophy (1988)
World Club Cup
UEFA Super Cup
Club World Championships

In time more competitions will be added with the most likely including the Southern League to 1919-20 (which was virtually the Third Division or even a rival to the Football League. Certainly strong enough for the Scottish League to play representative matches against and important enough to be regarded on a par with the SFL & FL by the government during WW1). Others up for inclusion are the United Counties League 1893-95 and the present day Conference in its various manifestations.

Acknowleding the difficulty of deciding what is and isn't a first class game the decision has been to include matches in which the first team would be expected to play (the League Cup?????) and pre-season tournaments have not been included though this is subject to revision.

If you're looking for line-ups, scorers etc for the Anglo-Scottish competitions or European meetings between English & Scottish sides then you won't get them - not the Scottish ones anyway. But these are readily available elsewhere, Herald, Evening Times in Google Newspapers and contemporary annuals, chiefly Rothmans & the WRB.

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Re: Online Sources

Post by HibeeJibee » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:22 am

That's a very impressive scope. Even the Debenhams Cup!! Infact it must embrace prettymuch every 'proper' competition at league level with the exception of a couple of vagaries like the Sheriff of London Shield and the Anglo-Franco-Scottish Cup (which I appreciate some regard simply as tabulated friendlies).

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Re: Online Sources

Post by Scottish » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:49 am

Although not on the list above, the Sheriff of London Shield is there in all three of its manifestations. As the precursor to the Charity Shield and in its short-lived revivals in the 1930s & 1960s. It appears as London Shield under the relevant club and season. But the Anglo-French section of the three-sided early 1960s tournament isn't there.

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Re: Online Sources

Post by bobby s » Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:36 pm

scottish wrote:The lack of an effective back button means you have to get into the habit of using your personal history to move back.
If using a mac [which I think you do?] then you used to be able to use the backspace button in safari as a keyboard shortcut to go back a page.

In safari 6 it's now apparently cmd & the left arrow key to go back, and the right arrow key to move forward.
It's the Hope I can't stand

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Re: Online Sources

Post by Scottish » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:48 am

Doesn't seem to work for me, Bobby. Maybe my OS & browser is too old.

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