Lowest OF away attendances

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Lowest OF away attendances

Post by Scottish » Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:10 pm

Just 3,561 watched Gretna v Celtic on Sunday. That was the lowest gate at a Celtic away league game for 43 years and the first sub-5,000 figure for any OF away league game for 23 seasons. Covering the period from 1961 (the earliest for which crowd figures are available for all clubs) these are the sub-5,000 gates at Old Firm away games:

1963-64
3,753 East Stirlingshire v Rangers

1964-65
3,356 Falkirk v Celtic
4,272 Third Lanark v Rangers

1970-71
3,193 Cowdenbeath v Rangers

1977-78
4,000 Clydebank v Celtic

1978-79
3,242 Hibernian v Rangers

1981-82
4,579 Morton v Rangers
4,659 Morton v Rangers

1982-83
4,788 Dundee v Rangers

1984-85
4,191 Morton v Rangers

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Post by Scottish » Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:06 pm

Sub-5,000 OF away league crowds 1905-1961. Pre-1905 figures are incomplete and sub- 5,000 figures were much more common back then.

Celtic

1906-07
1,500 Port Glasgow Athletic
4,000 Partick Thistle

1907-08
3,000 Port Glasgow Athletic
4,000 Airdrieonians

1908-09
1,500 Partick Thistle

1909-10
4,000 Airdrieonians

1911-12
4,000 Raith Rovers

1912-13
4,000 Hamilton

1914-15
4,000 Dumbarton

1915-16
4,000 Ayr United

1916-17
3,000 Raith Rovers
4,000 Falkirk

1917-18
3,000 Ayr United

1922-23
4,000 Ayr United

1923-24
4,000 Raith Rovers

1924-25
4,000 Kilmarnock

1927-28
3,000 St Johnstone

1928-29
4,000 Raith Rovers

1933-34
2,000 Airdrieonians
3,000 Clyde
3,000 Cowdenbeath
3,000 Third Lanark
4,000 St Mirren

1938-39
4,000 Motherwell

1959-60
4,000 Airdrieonians

Rangers

1905-06
3,500 Port Glasgow Athletic

1906-07
4,000 Hamilton
4,000 Morton

1907-08
4,000 Hamilton
4,000 St Mirren

1908-09
2,000 Morton
4,000 Port Glasgow Athletic

1909-10
4,000 Motherwell

1911-12
4,000 Kilmarnock

1914-15
3,000 Kilmarnock

1915-16
3,000 Falkirk
3,000 Raith Rovers
4,000 St Mirren

1916-17
3,000 Raith Rovers
4,000 Motherwell

1917-18
4,000 Ayr United

1926-27
4,000 Morton

1927-28
4,000 Bo'ness

1929-30
4,000 Airdrieonians

1931-32
4,000 Airdrieonians

1932-33
4,000 Hamilton

1933-34
2,000 Cowdenbeath
Last edited by Scottish on Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Scottish » Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:25 pm

Sub-5,000 OF away league crowds 1890-1905. 1890-93 are complete. The rest is not definitive. There are bound to be far more sub-5,000 gates than listed here.

Celtic

1890-91
2,500 Cowlairs
4,000 Cambuslang
4,000 Vale of Leven

1891-92
3,000 Cambuslang
3,000 Renton
3,000 Vale of Leven
4,500 Hearts

1892-93
2,500 Leith Athletic
4,000 Abercorn
4,000 Renton

1893-94
3,000 Leith Athletic
4,000 St Bernard’s

1894-95
4,000 Clyde

1895-96
4,000 St Mirren

1896-97
3,000 Clyde
4,000 Third Lanark
4,500 Abercorn

1897-98
3,000 St Bernard’s

1898-99
3,000 Dundee
3,000 Partick Thistle
4,000 Third Lanark

1899-1900
4,000 St Bernard’s

1903-04
4,000 Morton
4,000 Partick Thistle
4,500 Kilmarnock
4,500 Morton

Rangers

1890-91
2,000 Cowlairs
4,000 Abercorn
4,000 Cambuslang
4,000 St Mirren

1891-92
2,000 Cambuslang
2,000 Dumbarton
3,000 Abercorn
3,000 Vale of Leven
4,000 Clyde
4,000 Leith Athletic
4,000 St Mirren
4,500 Hearts

1892-93
3,000 Hearts
4,000 Dumbarton

1893-94
4,000 Dundee
4,000 Leith Athletic

1894-95
3,000 Leith Athletic
3,000 St Mirren

1895-96
3,000 Dundee
3,000 St Bernard’s
4,000 Third Lanark

1896-97
2,000 St Bernard’s
4,000 Clyde

1898-99
4,000 Clyde

1899-1900
2,000 St Bernard’s

1902-03
4,000 Kilmarnock

1903-04
4,000 Morton
4,000 Port Glasgow Athletic

1904-05
3,000 Morton

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Post by Scottish » Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:59 pm

Sub-5,000 OF HOME crowds. Same provisos as for away gates.

Celtic

1890-91
1,500 Abercorn
1,800 Vale of Leven
2,000 St Mirren
3,500 Cambuslang

1891-92
3,000 Leith Athletic
3,000 St Mirren
3,000 Third Lanark
4,000 Abercorn

1892-93
3,000 Third Lanark

1893-94
3,000 Dundee
3,000 Renton

1894-95
2,000 Dumbarton

1895-96
1,000 St Bernard’s
1,300 Dumbarton
3,000 Third Lanark

1896-97
1,000 Abercorn

1897-98
3,000 St Mirren
4,500 Partick Thistle

1898-99
2,500 Partick Thistle

1899-1900
2,000 Kilmarnock
2,000 St Bernard’s
3,000 St Mirren

1900-01
1,000 Morton
3,000 Dundee
3,000 St Mirren
4,000 Partick Thistle

1901-02
3,000 Kilmarnock

1902-03
4,000 Kilmarnock

1903-04
1,500 Port Glasgow Athletic
3,000 Morton
4,000 Kilmarnock

1904-05
2,000 Port Glasgow Athletic
4,000 Kilmarnock

1905-06
1,500 Third Lanark
4,500 Port Glasgow Athletic

1906-07
3,000 Hamilton
3,000 Motherwell

1907-08
3,000 Morton
4,000 Partick Thistle

1908-09
3,000 Port Glasgow Athletic

1909-10
3,000 Aberdeen
4,000 Hibernian
4,000 Morton
4,000 Motherwell

1910-11
2,000 Hamilton
2,500 Queen’s Park
3,000 Aberdeen
3,000 Motherwell
4,000 Hibernian

1911-12
2,000 Raith Rovers
2,500 Kilmarnock
4,000 Morton

1915-16
4,000 Kilmarnock
4,000 Third Lanark

1916-17
4,000 Ayr United

1920-21
4,000 Clydebank

1921-22
4,000 Clydebank

1922-23
4,000 Alloa Athletic

1923-24
3,000 St Mirren
4,000 Ayr United
4,500 Raith Rovers

1926-27
3,000 Dunfermline
4,000 Dundee United

1927-28
3,000 Dunfermline
3,000 St Johnstone
4,000 Raith Rovers

1928-29
4,000 Motherwell

1929-30
4,000 Airdrieonians
4,000 Ayr United
4,000 Hamilton
4,000 Kilmarnock
4,000 St Johnstone

1930-31
4,000 Leith Athletic

1931-32
4,000 Morton

1932-33
2,000 Airdrieonians
4,000 Ayr United
4,000 Hamilton
4,000 St Johnstone

1933-34
1,000 Dundee
1,000 Hamilton
3,000 St Mirren
4,000 Kilmarnock
4,000 Queen of the South
4,000 St Johnstone

1934-35
3,000 Falkirk
4,000 St Mirren

1936-37
4,000 Albion Rovers

1937-38
2,000 Ayr United
4,000 Dundee

1938-39
4,000 Albion Rovers

1955-56
4,000 Falkirk

1956-57
3,000 Queen of the South

1957-58
4,000 East Fife
4,000 Queen’s Park
4,000 Third Lanark

1958-59
4,000 Airdrieonians

1962-63
4,692 Motherwell

1983-84
4,596 Dundee

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Post by Scottish » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:18 pm

And for Rangers

1890-91
2,000 Abercorn
2,000 Cambuslang
2,000 Vale of Leven
3,500 Hearts

1891-92
2,000 St Mirren
2,000 Vale of Leven
3,000 Abercorn
3,000 Leith Athletic
4,000 Cambuslang
4,000 Clyde
4,000 Dumbarton

1892-93
2,000 Abercorn

1893-94
1,000 St Bernard’s
3,000 Dundee
3,500 St Mirren
4,000 Hearts
4,000 Leith Athletic
4,000 Renton

1894-95
3,500 Dundee
4,000 Third Lanark

1895-96
2,000 Dumbarton
2,000 Dundee
2,000 St Mirren
2,500 Clyde
4,000 St Bernard’s

1896-97
2,000 Abercorn
4,000 Clyde

1897-98
3,000 Clyde
3,000 Third Lanark
3,500 St Mirren

1898-99
1,500 Dundee
3,000 St Bernard’s
4,000 Clyde

1899-1900
4,000 St Bernard’s
4,000 St Mirren
4,000 Third Lanark

1901-02
3,000 Morton

1902-03
3,000 Port Glasgow Athletic
4,500 Kilmarnock

1903-04
3,000 Morton
3,000 Motherwell
3,500 Port Glasgow Athletic
4,000 Kilmarnock

1904-05
4,000 Airdrieonians

1905-06
3,000 Morton

1906-07
2,500 Kilmarnock
3,000 Port Glasgow Athletic

1907-08
2,500 Port Glasgow Athlteic
4,000 Hearts

1908-09
2,000 Hibernian
2,000 Queen’s Park
4,000 Hamilton

1909-10
3,000 Hearts

1913-14
4,000 Hibernian

1915-16
3,000 Dumbarton
4,000 Kilmarnock

1933-34
4,000 Third Lanark

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Post by lbb » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:29 pm

Some of those Rangers' attendances were a gross miscalculation by the Daily Record. *cough*

In Celtic's defence yesterday, :o , around 3,000 of their punters must have made the trip - that's £25 a skull for, essentially, a non-event. And with Man Utd-Liverpool running in the pubs beforehand. I see Leckie had a go at them for not turning up in greater numbers. Almondvale only holds around 7,000 - even if Celtic had double the numbers, would it really have made a dent in Gretna's plight? No. So why pretend that it would? Blame Gretna for being such a shambles of a club.

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Post by Scottish » Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:58 pm

Also Chelsea v Arsenal after the game at Old Trafford. I must confess all I saw of Gretna v Celtic was the fifteen or so minutes of the interval of the Man U- Liverpool match and the last half hour of the second half after full time at Manchester.

No comment from Leckie on the disappointing turnout at Love Street for the replay with St Johnstone? I thought he was the Buddies biggest fan. After Chico of course.

The fact is that it's now possible for clubs to LOSE money from televised matches. Tynecastle, Easter Road, Inverness & Falkirk are all full or next to it for OF games but the other six clubs can lose out. The Celtic ties at Aberdeen and Kilmarnock could have attracted at least another 5,000 without the cameras. That's well over £100,000 in gate money (okay, it's split between the clubs but isn't the TV fee as well for cup ties?) before adding on cash spent on programmes, food and drink, hospitality etc. In Kilmarnock's case, with a bar and hotel at the ground, that's a lot of cash lost.

On the plus side the repair bill for seating would be significantly reduced.

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Post by Skyline Drifter » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:35 pm

lbb wrote:Almondvale only holds around 7,000
Almonvale holds 10,000. It was compliant with the old SPL 10,000 seater rule and they haven't removed any.

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Post by Skyline Drifter » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:39 pm

[quote="scottish"]The Celtic ties at Aberdeen and Kilmarnock could have attracted at least another 5,000 without the cameras. That's well over £100,000 in gate money (okay, it's split between the clubs but isn't the TV fee as well for cup ties?)
[quote]
The tv money though is £165k split evenly between the clubs. And I presume that figure is net of VAT whilst your £100k gate money will need that taken off so in fact that's effectively under half the proceeds of the tv monies.

It'll take a lot of programmes, food and drink, hospitality, etc to make up that difference. And the away club wouldn't get any benefit from any of that increased income.

All pre-supposing the attendance would have increased by 5,000 anyway.

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Post by nightfire » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:59 pm

lbb wrote:Some of those Rangers' attendances were a gross miscalculation by the Daily Record. *cough*

In Celtic's defence yesterday, :o , around 3,000 of their punters must have made the trip - that's £25 a skull for, essentially, a non-event. And with Man Utd-Liverpool running in the pubs beforehand. I see Leckie had a go at them for not turning up in greater numbers. Almondvale only holds around 7,000 - even if Celtic had double the numbers, would it really have made a dent in Gretna's plight? No. So why pretend that it would? Blame Gretna for being such a shambles of a club.
A lot of Celtic fans refused to buy tickets for the game for fear of the match being cancelled and monies not being refunded.

In addition, a substantial amount of Celtic fans turned up at the ground hoping to buy tickets or pay at the gate. They were refused entry and Gretna lost out - not sure whether it was the fault of the polis, stewards or maybe it was just a bad idea to turn up without a ticket.

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Post by Scottish » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:02 pm

I put 5k as a MINIMUM. Previous low for a Celtic Scottish Cup tie at Rugby Park was 11,249 and IIRC that was a televised match too. And £100K based on that is a very conservative figure. I think the admission price was £24 or thereabouts with no concessions.

I've absolutely no doubt that if no cameras had been there and fans were allowed to pay at the gate then the crowd would have been around double what it was. Remember, this tie, date and kick-off was only finalised on the Tuesday morning before the game.

I've no idea whether the TV fee is net of VAT or not but I do know that it is possible for clubs to actually lose out through a match being televised as thousands of fans - particularly the OF - stay at home or watch in the pub.

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Post by lbb » Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:27 am

nightfire wrote:
A lot of Celtic fans refused to buy tickets for the game for fear of the match being cancelled and monies not being refunded.

In addition, a substantial amount of Celtic fans turned up at the ground hoping to buy tickets or pay at the gate. They were refused entry and Gretna lost out - not sure whether it was the fault of the polis, stewards or maybe it was just a bad idea to turn up without a ticket.
The administrator said he wanted fans to be able to pay at the gate so we can assume it's a police decision not to have done so. They must have feared hordes of ticketless fans swamping the turnstiles. :roll:

To be fair to Leckie, he did make a good point about Pearce Flynn - a guy who won't switch on the undersoil heating for Div One fixtures involving his own club but laid out the red carpet for Gretna, Setanta and, especially, Celtic. Who knows. Maybe in his demented mind, he imagines Livingston could replace Gretna in the SPL because they have a 10,000-seater stadium ( 8) ) and, er, that's it.

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Post by nightfire » Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:13 pm

lbb wrote:
nightfire wrote:
A lot of Celtic fans refused to buy tickets for the game for fear of the match being cancelled and monies not being refunded.

In addition, a substantial amount of Celtic fans turned up at the ground hoping to buy tickets or pay at the gate. They were refused entry and Gretna lost out - not sure whether it was the fault of the polis, stewards or maybe it was just a bad idea to turn up without a ticket.
The administrator said he wanted fans to be able to pay at the gate so we can assume it's a police decision not to have done so. They must have feared hordes of ticketless fans swamping the turnstiles. :roll:

To be fair to Leckie, he did make a good point about Pearce Flynn - a guy who won't switch on the undersoil heating for Div One fixtures involving his own club but laid out the red carpet for Gretna, Setanta and, especially, Celtic. Who knows. Maybe in his demented mind, he imagines Livingston could replace Gretna in the SPL because they have a 10,000-seater stadium ( 8) ) and, er, that's it.
A more simpler explanation is that he was paid more than enough to cover his costs and where there is a quick buck to be made then there would be a few Chairmen willing to help

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Post by Scottish » Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:57 pm

Skyline Drifter wrote:
lbb wrote:Almondvale only holds around 7,000
Almonvale holds 10,000. It was compliant with the old SPL 10,000 seater rule and they haven't removed any.
It was a remarkable piece of creative arithmetic which provided 10,000 seats at Livingston. The first game I saw there had an attendance of 7,416 and there's no way there were as many as 2,500 empty seats. I was informed - by a reputable and reliable source - that a Nelsonian eye was cast in their direction at the time of their promotion to the SPL as that body didn't want to prevent a team from being promoted. Ironic, really, in view of later developments with Falkirk, Inverness & Gretna

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Post by LLD » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:03 am

I'm afraid the suggestion that Almondvale doesn't hold 10,000 is utter tosh.

It has 10,006. The SPL sent someone to count them at the time we were promoted. No kidding.

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