Early Scottish Cup

Scottish Football Answers to Questions
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Early Scottish Cup

Post by Scottish » Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:56 am

Given the interest in - and general unavailability of - John Byrne's 'Scottish Cup 1873-1986' I thought I'd start a dedicated thread where people can request info from this book.

The main information available is results, dates, HT, attendances, goalscorers. Please bear in mind that whilst this book is a highly-detailed record of the Scottish Cup the records are far from complete. Basically, the further back you go the less comprehensive it is. Since this book's publication there have been further studies made which have added - and in some cases amended - the details in John Byrne's book. In particular I know Alan McCabe has been researching 19th century matches for a long time.

One final note, line-ups in John Byrne's book are only available for semi-finals, finals and associated replays.

With these caveats in mind, please post any queries on this thread.

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Post by BMCCOLL » Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:21 pm

I've also got this book, and have annotated it with some additional dates and scorers. Like yours, David, it's falling to bits due to extensive use, but all the pages are there.

If anyone is interested, I also have full details of the SFL inter-league matches and The Scottish League Cup books, both by the AFS, with extensive details such as line-ups (from the QFs), goalscorers and attendances.

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Post by Scottish » Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:04 pm

Some time ago Davy Allan and I collaborated on putting together definitive inter-league information, consisting of dates, opponents, results, goalscorers (both teams), line-ups (SFL only), subs, crowds. All that is missing is the following:

Goalscorers
11/2/1899 third Irish League goalscorer

Attendances
19/10/1949 v League of Ireland
17/3/1952 v League of Ireland
24/9/1952 v 'Welsh League'
8/10/1952 v League of Ireland
17/3/1954 v League of Ireland
7/9/1966 v League of Ireland
26/4/1978 v Italian League

Substitutions
7/9/1966 v League of Ireland. Did Andy Penman come on or not? If so who did he replace?

26/4/1978 v Italian League. Did Murdo McLeod come on or not? If so who did he replace?

If you can fill in any of those gaps, Brian, it would be appreciated.

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Post by Sat31March1928 » Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:26 pm

All the SFL stats can be seen here

http://www.londonhearts.com/scotland/scotland.htm#sfl

I'm gradually working on combining the SFL player names to theie Scotland names. So I can combine both sets of data. Certainly in the early years they were considered a considerable honour as well.

Also I've got the SDA links for Hearts and Hibs Scottish Cup games. Where there was a 'big' SC game played on the same day I have copied those details as well.

http://www.londonhearts.com/scores/imag ... /scup.html

http://www.londonhearts.com/scores/imag ... bscup.html

Scottish Cup Final Info

http://www.londonhearts.com/scores/imag ... inals.html
Jackson; James; Jackson; James; Jackson

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Post by BMCCOLL » Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:20 pm

scottish wrote:Some time ago Davy Allan and I collaborated on putting together definitive inter-league information, consisting of dates, opponents, results, goalscorers (both teams), line-ups (SFL only), subs, crowds. All that is missing is the following:

Goalscorers
11/2/1899 third Irish League goalscorer

Attendances
19/10/1949 v League of Ireland
17/3/1952 v League of Ireland
24/9/1952 v 'Welsh League'
8/10/1952 v League of Ireland
17/3/1954 v League of Ireland
7/9/1966 v League of Ireland
26/4/1978 v Italian League

Substitutions
7/9/1966 v League of Ireland. Did Andy Penman come on or not? If so who did he replace?

26/4/1978 v Italian League. Did Murdo McLeod come on or not? If so who did he replace?

If you can fill in any of those gaps, Brian, it would be appreciated.

Goalscorers
11/2/1899 Irish League goalscorers were J McAllan 2 and JT Mercer

Attendances
19/10/1949 v League of Ireland - 17000
17/3/1952 v League of Ireland - 33000
24/9/1952 v 'Welsh League' - 11500 NOTE that the 'Welsh League' side consisted of players from Cardiff City, Newport Co and Swansea Town.
8/10/1952 v League of Ireland - 10000
17/3/1954 v League of Ireland - 35000
7/9/1966 v League of Ireland - 12000
26/4/1978 v Italian League - 10000 NOTE the Italian side was called Italty 'B'.

Substitutions
7/9/1966 v League of Ireland. Andy Penman replaced Bobby Murdoch

26/4/1978 v Italian League. Murdo McLeod replaced G Cramond

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Post by Sat31March1928 » Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:57 pm

I'll update my stats accordingly and republish them over the weekend.
Jackson; James; Jackson; James; Jackson

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Post by Sat31March1928 » Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:31 pm

I've still got a couple of crowds missing

Irish League 0-1 28/2/1903
League of Ireland 4-2 21/9/1955

In the following 2 games I have these subs. Does anyone know if they came on and who for?

Irish League 2-3 29/4/1893
Andy Brown St Mirren

League of Ireland 1-0 2/9/1970
Tommy McLean Kilmarnock

ta
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Post by Scottish » Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:33 pm

Thanks, Brian. Davy and I made it 169 of these fixtures from 1892-1980. There are accurate - as opposed to round figures - attendances for 33 which can be found via the London Hearts link.

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Post by Scottish » Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:43 pm

Sat31March1928 wrote:I've still got a couple of crowds missing

Irish League 0-1 28/2/1903
League of Ireland 4-2 21/9/1955

In the following 2 games I have these subs. Does anyone know if they came on and who for?

Irish League 2-3 29/4/1893
Andy Brown St Mirren

League of Ireland 1-0 2/9/1970
Tommy McLean Kilmarnock

ta
10,000 & 25,500 respectively

Brown for Alexander Wylie.

McLean? I'm not 100% (and neither is the WRB but it doesn't credit him with an appearance in this game) but I don't think he came on.

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Post by bobby s » Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:15 pm

A long shot David but is there any goalscorers listed for Hibs first few scottish cup ties:

6 10 1877 Scottish Cup H Heart of Midlothian W 2 1
20 10 1877 Scottish Cup A Hanover D 1 1
27 10 1877 Scottish Cup H Hanover W 3 0
10 11 1877 Scottish Cup H Edinburgh Swifts W 2 0
8 12 1877 Scottish Cup A Thornliebank W 2 1
15 12 1877 Scottish Cup H Thornliebank D 2 2
29 12 1877 Scottish Cup A South Western L 1 3
28 9 1878 Scottish Cup H Dunfermline Athletic W 5 2

?

:)
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Post by Scottish » Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:22 pm

Too long a shot, I'm afraid, Bobby. No scorers in Byrne for any of those games. First scorers listed are v 3rd Edinburgh RV on 19/10/1878 - Heron, Quinn and Donnelly - in a 3-0 win in a match which was abandoned but the result stood.

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Post by bobby s » Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:58 pm

Thanks Davy, I was expecting you to say that. :)
It's the Hope I can't stand

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Post by Alan McCabe » Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:18 pm

Quinn scored both in the 2-2 draw with Thornliebank.
A bit later on, I'm still puzzled by Hibernian's scorer in the Logie Green Final of 1896. O'Neil seems not to have played any league matches that season nor the next, indeed doesn't reappear at all from my records. Any further information or was this the briefest of Cup careers at such an exalted stage?

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Post by nightfire » Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:30 pm

Please check the following for Celtic scorers:

13/10/1888 - Celtic 4 v Albion Rovers 1
08/12/1888 - Celtic 9 v Clyde 2
12/01/1889 - Dumbarton 1 v Celtic 4
18/10/1890 - Wishaw Thistle 2 v Celtic 6
13/12/1890 - Royal Albert 0 v Celtic 2
16/12/1893 - Celtic 7 v Albion Rovers 0

For these games, I have seen some scorers listed but the books I have available don't agree.

Thanks.

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Post by bobby s » Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:40 pm

I don't know what it is about Hibs and cup finals - I think Dave Beaumont won a winners medal without every playing for Hibs, and then won a runners up medal two years later as an unused Sub.

Back to 1896, which incidentally was played on the same day as the 2004 final v Livingston - 14th March - a bad omen if ever there was one.

From Lugton:

There were other problems in the forward line, for an unknown reason a completely new left-winger John O' Neill from Linlithgow was selected in place of Jimmy Murdoch. Even up to just a few hours before the kick off Hibernian had not finalised their forward line but, it was known that they were sticking to their tried and tested defence.

According to Litster

1895/96 O'Neill, John Linlithgow Athletic 14 2 1896 to Hibs 28/2/96
1896/97 O'Neill, John Airdrieonians 23 7 1896 to east Stirling 20/4/97

I don't know if smokiesnwine can add anything, but that may have been the only appearance the JON made in his 5 month hibs career. Must have been awfy good in training.
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