McGrory beats McColl, Brown, Gilmour and McBain

Scottish Football Answers to Questions
bonxie
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:54 am
Contact:

McGrory beats McColl, Brown, Gilmour and McBain

Post by bonxie » Sun Nov 23, 2008 7:44 pm

In one of the match reports for the Celtic v Dunfermline game in 1928 when Jimmy McGrory scored eight, it states that in doing so, he beat the previous record of six jointly held by R S McColl, David Brown, Jimmy Gilmour and Laurie McBain. The career of "toffee" Bob is well documented, but what about the other 3?

Scottish
Site Admin
Posts: 7665
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:51 pm
Contact:

Post by Scottish » Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:35 am

Jimmy Gilmour scored six for Queen of the South v Arbroath in a 7-4 home win on October 2nd 1926. He finished with 31 league goals that season. What happened to him after that I have no idea. John Litster's disk has him as being at Palmerston from February 1926 until the end of 1927-1928 with no record of where he went to after that.

Davie Brown was a prolific goalscorer for Dundee who hit all six in their 6-2 win over Raith Rovers on December 9th 1916. He hit 31 in total and was top scorer at Dens Park for the third successive season, having scored 79 times in 103 league matches. He moved to Rangers when Dundee resigned from the league. In twenty league matches over two seasons he scored fourteen times before returning to Dundee in 1919 where he scored another eleven in just thirteen games up to the end of October when he moved south to join Stoke City in the Second Division (Championship today). He scored 17 times in 50 league matches before joining Notts County at the same level in January 1921. There he scored seven times in fourteen games then returned north to Kilmarnock in the close season 1922.

At Rugby Park he scored just four times in 19 appearances and left for Darlington in the Third Division North in January 1923. He rediscovered his old form at Feethams, scoring 27 times in 40 matches in 1923-24 then an amazing 39 from the same number of games in 1924-25 - the last season of the old offside law - to create a new Football League record and at the same time win his only major honour in the game - the Third North title.

He hit eight in 18 at Darlington in 1925-26 then rejoined the Third North at Crewe Alexandra where he scored 21 times in 37 matches before finally ending up at Barrow where he scored seven goals in 23 games in 1927-28.

All told he scored 126 times in English league games and 108 in Scotland. His career largely missed the Scottish Cup because of wartime but he scored three times in both the Glasgow Cup and Charity Cup while with Rangers and was on the winning team in both competitions. He also scored once in the Victory Cup of 1918-19. In England he scored just three times in the FA Cup, all for Darlington.

All in all a very impressive record, especially as most of his career was played under the old three-man offside law.

Since 1888 gives his full name as David Carre Brown, born Broughty Ferry, November 26th 1887. If they are correct that means he played until he was 40 but it also means he wasn't signed by a league club until he was 25 (Dundee, February 1913). There is some confusion as to whether these details are mixed up with another player as Since 1888 also has him as spending time with Dundee St Josephs, Peebles Rovers & Morton. Litster has ANOTHER David C Brown who joined Morton from Tottenham Hotspur in 1911 and who moved to Northampton Town in 1913,

This player was also a centre-forward and even more confusingly born in Broughty Ferry as David Crichton Brown on July 26th 1889.

I can't trace a Laurie McBain. Perhaps this was a middle name or a typo and could be a McBlane or McBean?

LEATHERSTOCKING
Posts: 1611
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:11 pm
Contact:

Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:04 pm

Laurie McBain played for the Queen`s Park 1st Xl from 13th September 1924 to 3rd May 1927. He played 50 games for the Spiders & scored 20 goals (43league/20g), didn`t do much after he left Hampden & died @ the age of 31. His double hat-trick came @ Firhill in a 7-1 win on 8th February 1927.

LEATHERSTOCKING
Posts: 1611
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:11 pm
Contact:

Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:28 pm

Regarding names of other big scorers, can anyone supply the 1st name or even initial of the following:
Robertson & Munro of Arbroath in the famous 36-0 win over Bon Accord in 1885 & McGirl of Dundee Harp in the 35-0 win over Aberdeen Rovers the same day. BTW, it`s now 35 years since the last double hat-trick - Dixie Deans vs. the Jags 17/11/1973. C`mon someone - ANYONE! Funnily enough, of the 65 instances I have of players known to have scored 6 or more in the Cup, league & League Cup only 5 are from the Glasgow Giants - Fleming, Smith(twice), & Wilson of Rangers and McGrory & Deans of Celtic. There must be many more instances in the 19thC when reporters got bored after the 11th or 12th goal went in in a Cup tie & didn`t record them all.

Further to Laurie(Lawrence) McBain, he went to Raith Rovers from Hampden then to St.Johnstone, back to Raith & finished with Dundee Utd. & died in 1937 (not 1931) AGED 31.

Scottish
Site Admin
Posts: 7665
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:51 pm
Contact:

Post by Scottish » Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:03 pm

When was McColl's double hat-trick then? Presumably he was playing for Queen's Park at the time?

bonxie
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:54 am
Contact:

Post by bonxie » Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:40 pm

Yes, McColl scored his 6 goals in April 1910 for Queen's Park against Port Glasgow Athletic.

Re: the comment about the Glasgow giants only contributing 5 double hat-tricks, I think that maybe the best individual tally for a club (albeit on league goals only) is Dundee with 4 - Brown, Juliussen (twice) and Gilzean.

Leatherstocking - Out of interest, could you supply a list of the 65 instances you refer to?

bonxie
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:54 am
Contact:

Post by bonxie » Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:42 pm

Did Jim Forrest not score 5 for Rangers in the League Cup?

cowdenbeather
Posts: 147
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:13 pm
Contact:

Post by cowdenbeather » Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:26 pm

David Brown was the first player to score 100 league goals in both the Scottish and English Leagues. This was later emulated by Jimmy McConnell, Neil Martin, Joe Baker and Kenny Dalglish.

Here are the details of all the players I have identified as scoring 6 or more goals in a Scottish League game.

26/04/10 R S McColl QUEEN’S PARK v Port Glasgow Athletic 6
09/12/16 David Brown DUNDEE v Raith Rovers 6
22/03/24 Andrew Cant EAST FIFE v Forfar 6
02/10/26 Jimmy Gilmour QOS v Arbroath 6
08/02/27 Laurie McBain QUEEN’S PARK v Partick Thistle 6
01/10/27 Owen McNally ARTHURLIE v Armadale 8
14/01/28 Jimmy McGrory CELTIC v Dunfermline 8
27/10/28 George Watson MOTHERWELL v Falkirk 6
02/01/30 Jim Dyet KING’S PARK v Forfar 8
15/11/30 Alex Merrie ABERDEEN v Hibs 6
14/09/32 Paddy Moore ABERDEEN v Falkirk 6
12/11/32 Dave McCrae ST MIRREN v Cowdenbeath 6
24/12/32 Alex Haddow KING’S PARK v Raith Rovers 6
15/08/33 Jimmy Smith RANGERS v Ayr United 6
22/08/33 Terry McGibbons AYR UNITED v Third Lanark 6
11/08/34 Jimmy Smith RANGERS v Dunfermline 6
25/08/34 Bob Keyes MORTON v East Stirling 6
29/09/34 Joe Cowan EAST FIFE v Dumbarton 7
20/10/34 Jimmy Bartram FALKIRK v Ayr United 6
14/03/36 Joe Cowan EAST FIFE v King’s Park 6
18/04/36 John Calder MORTON v Raith Rovers 8
09/01/37 Allan Bryce ALLOA v Edinburgh City 6
30/04/37 Alex Stewart MOTHERWELL v Celtic 6
18/02/39 Jimmy Johnston ST BERNARDS v Forfar 6
25/02/39 Rab Walls COWDENBEATH v Stenhousemuir 6
08/03/47 Albert Juliussen DUNDEE v Alloa 6
22/03/47 Albert Juliussen DUNDEE v Dunfermline 7
03/01/49 Archie Aikman FALKIRK v Albion Rovers 6
21/04/51 John McKeown COWDENBEATH v Forfar 6
23/01/54 Wilson Humphries MOTHERWELL v Dundee Utd 6
21/12/57 Eddie Beaton MORTON v Berwick Rangers 6
21/02/59 Eric Addison BERWICK RANGERS v Dundee Utd 6
18/04/59 Harry Melrose DUNFERMLINE v Partick Thistle 6
16/12/61 Jim Patterson QOS v Cowdenbeath 6
30/12/61 Charlie Dickson DUNFERMLINE v St Mirren 6
16/03/62 Davie Wilson RANGERS v Falkirk 6
01/12/62 Alan Gilzean DUNDEE v QOS 7
08/12/62 Hugh Maxwell FALKIRK v Clyde 7
02/11/63 George Dewar EAST FIFE v Alloa 6
23/09/72 Brian Third MONTROSE v Stranraer 6
17/11/73 John Deans CELTIC v Partick Thistle 6

Crilly (Alloa) & Armstrong (Aberdeen) are often credited with 6 but only scored 5s. Scoular (Stenhousemuir) with 6 and Haywood (Raith Rovers) with 8 are both common errors.

Gunboat Briggs
Posts: 83
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:50 pm
Location: Derby
Contact:

Post by Gunboat Briggs » Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:26 pm

Regarding Laurie McBain, Pat Kelly's Dundee United Who's Who has a few contrary details to those provided by Leatherstocking above, although it's not the most reliable book so this could well be wrong! Kelly says McBain was with St Johnstone from 1927-33 and played for Raith on loan in 1929. He joined United in September 1933 but a broken leg against Arbroath that December finished his career. He died in September 1937 and, according to this source, was only 29.

Scottish
Site Admin
Posts: 7665
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:51 pm
Contact:

Post by Scottish » Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:31 am

cowdenbeather wrote:David Brown was the first player to score 100 league goals in both the Scottish and English Leagues.
I think Davie McLean was the first to do so. He had accumulated over 100 goals in England by the outbreak of the first world war (25 Preston, 88 Sheffield Wednesday) and hit the 100 mark in Scotland in 1918-19 while with Rangers, having previously scored 19 for Celtic and 76 for Third Lanark. At this stage all his goals had been in the top division.

To add to the information in the link I have him as scoring 405 league goals - 162 in England and 243 in Scotland.

There are a few near misses for the 'double ton.' Players like Davie Halliday and Hughie Gallacher easily scored over 100 in England but left Scotland when stuck in the 90s. More recently Alan Gilzean finished his career in England on 93, having scored over 100 for Dundee and Brian McClair with well over 100 in Scotland scored 88 league goals at Man Utd.

Scottish
Site Admin
Posts: 7665
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:51 pm
Contact:

Post by Scottish » Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:54 am

LEATHERSTOCKING wrote: BTW, it`s now 35 years since the last double hat-trick - Dixie Deans vs. the Jags 17/11/1973. C`mon someone - ANYONE!.
Willie Watters gave it a right good try on May 13th 1989 when he put the ball in the QoS net six times. Alas, one was chalked off for offside and Kilmarnock were relegated as a consequence. Then on September 25th 2004 Kris Boyd netted six times for Killie v Dundee United with one being rather dodgily ruled out.
LEATHERSTOCKING wrote:There must be many more instances in the 19thC when reporters got bored after the 11th or 12th goal went in in a Cup tie & didn`t record them all.
Indeed, when Killie beat Saltcoats Vics 13-2 in the Qualifying Cup in 1896 even the local paper said it would be a 'waste of time' to record all the goals. Eleven were recorded with 'Bummer' Campbell scoring at least eight. Officially, Campbell scored 48 league goals, 24 Scottish Cup and 18 in the one season he played in the Qualifying Cup for a total of 90. In reality he scored well over 200 in his career

Scottish
Site Admin
Posts: 7665
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:51 pm
Contact:

Post by Scottish » Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:18 am

Gunboat Briggs wrote: Kelly says McBain was with St Johnstone from 1927-33 and played for Raith on loan in 1929.
There were two McBains around at the same time, the other being Neil McBain, famous as the oldest player in English league football, turning out in goal for New Brighton at the age of 52.

Even more confusing both McBains were with St Johnstone in 1927-28 before Neil signed for Liverpool.

There was certainly a McBain playing for St Johnstone during the seasons mentioned and it wasn't Neil as he remained in English football as a player until 1931 and as a manager from 1929 onwards. But if it was Laurie McBain then he must have changed positions as from towards the end of the 1929-30 season he appears as a half-back not a forward.

Frustratingly, Laurie McBain is missing from John Litster's disk.

Scottish
Site Admin
Posts: 7665
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:51 pm
Contact:

Post by Scottish » Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:25 am

Hopefully this should clear up the Laurie McBain queries. Or maybe murky the waters a bit more.

According to the Emms & Wells book on pre-war appearances, he was with Queen's Park 1924-1927, St Johnstone 1927-1933 (loan to Raith in 1928-29) and Dundee United 1933-34. They gave a birth year as 1907 and date of death as September 20th 1937, meaning he was aged either 29 or 30. He was born in - and died in - Dundee.

LEATHERSTOCKING
Posts: 1611
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:11 pm
Contact:

Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:37 am

According to Bob Crampsey`s centenary history of Queen`s McBain was 31 when he died. If he was born in 1907 then he made his 1st Xl debut as a 17 year old which isn`t a novelty but if Pat Kelly is right & he was only 29 at the time of his death in September 1937 then he could have been only 16 on his 13/9/1924 debut. A birth date would clear it up. Also, what was his middle name & his surname spelling? I only have "L.D.McBain" in true Queen`s Park fashion. He only made 2 appearances in 1924-25 his debut season, 20 the following year & 28 in his last before moving to Perth.

Scottish
Site Admin
Posts: 7665
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:51 pm
Contact:

Post by Scottish » Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:43 pm

Emms/Wells has it as Laurence Durkie McBain.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests