Babcock and Wilcox - how did they win Renfrewshire Cup in t

Scottish Football Answers to Questions
Scottish
Site Admin
Posts: 7665
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:51 pm
Contact:

Post by Scottish » Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:47 am

Thanks for all that info. Just two points: Yes, Girvan took part in the Ayrshire Cup from 1978-79 onwards. Regarding lack of interest in the Fife Cup, I would have thought that the infrequent nature of league meetings between some of the Fife clubs would have produced a healthy interest in the county competition.

HibeeJibee
Posts: 774
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:36 pm
Contact:

Post by HibeeJibee » Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:18 pm

scottish wrote:Thanks for all that info. Just two points: Yes, Girvan took part in the Ayrshire Cup from 1978-79 onwards. Regarding lack of interest in the Fife Cup, I would have thought that the infrequent nature of league meetings between some of the Fife clubs would have produced a healthy interest in the county competition.
You'd have thought so, but the thing is so low on the priority lists of clubs that there is never the potential to realise those crowds (which tbh I'm not 100% sure would turn up... too much football on TV, too little interest in a true 'diddy cup'). Games are arranged at short notice, often with hardly a mention on the club websites. Clubs field side of U-19s with the odd fringe first-teamer thrown in (or at least, the games have a reputation for this). People aren't aware of the history of the tournaments, so they don't have much inclination to take an interest. So Fife is in the most trouble I'd say.

Things seem not quite so bad in Forfarshire, if these crowds are accurate:
http://www.forfarshirefa.com/page004.html

A crowd of about 150 watched Berwick v Selkirk (last season's EOS Cup Semi-Final) back in January; slightly less saw the Final, Lothian v Berwick, on the midweek before Scotland v Netherlands. This season's Final is due on Sunday 17th May (Berwick v Whitehill) - it might perhaps draw ~150.

Aberdeenshire, North of Scotland, Southern Counties are different kettles of fish due to non-league entry. Renfrewshire has own unique situation...

I recently posted a summary of upcoming regional cups here:
http://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index ... pic=105643
and as you can see, some are getting on better than others with fixtures.

standman
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:57 pm
Contact:

Post by standman » Sun Apr 26, 2009 5:25 pm

The bizarre thing about Ayrshire is that in recent times there has been a Westsound Challenge trophy.

Wonder why they let the Ayrshire Cup die off when they continue to meet regularly anyway ?

Scottish
Site Admin
Posts: 7665
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:51 pm
Contact:

Post by Scottish » Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:46 pm

The first of these games was more than five years after the last Ayrshire Cup match and they've scarcely been regular

Oct 11th 2003 Kilmarnock 1 (Fulton) Ayr United 0 3,033

July 24th 2004 Ayr Utd 2 (Keane, Brown) Kilmarnock 2 (Lilley, Dargo) (Ayr won 5-4 pens) 3,100

July 23rd 2005 Kilmarnock 4 (Boyd 4 (1 pen) Ayr United 0 3,885

standman
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:57 pm
Contact:

Post by standman » Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:00 pm

In my mind they'd played it more often ! Shows how wrong you can be.

With crowds over over 3000, I wonder why they knocked it on the head ?

Scottish
Site Admin
Posts: 7665
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:51 pm
Contact:

Post by Scottish » Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:49 pm

Well, there's 3,000 and there's 3,000. One would be Killie's lowest crowd of the season and the other Ayr's highest so the incentives are different. Also the problem of finding a suitable date, particularly when the season starts in July. Though if the will was there I'm sure it could be played though I'm equally certain both sets of fans would prefer the original - and quite magnificent - county cup to be contested rather than some ersatz radio station trophy.

standman
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:57 pm
Contact:

Post by standman » Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:00 pm

Yep, the Ayrshire Cup, like the Renfrewshire Cup , is quite magnificent.

Although, as you say, 3000 would be a low Killie attendance, I wonder if it would still be higher than if they played Championship English opposition pre season ?

Using St Mirren as an example, I think they pulled in around 1500 two or three years ago for a game against Norwich, yet 4000 attended the game against Morton in the RC.

Even if you take into account a large travelling support, more Buddies want to watch Morton than the likes of Norwich !

I'm sure it would be the same for Killie competing for the Ayrshire Cup.

prorege
Posts: 264
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 4:59 pm
Contact:

Post by prorege » Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:04 pm

I was at an East of Scotland Shield Final in May 2008 at Easter Road - 3-2 to Hibs, I think. Mainly under 19 players involved - wasn't it the 2007/8 Final?

HibeeJibee
Posts: 774
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:36 pm
Contact:

Post by HibeeJibee » Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:55 pm

prorege wrote:I was at an East of Scotland Shield Final in May 2008 at Easter Road - 3-2 to Hibs, I think. Mainly under 19 players involved - wasn't it the 2007/8 Final?
2006-07

Scottish
Site Admin
Posts: 7665
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:51 pm
Contact:

Post by Scottish » Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:50 pm

standman wrote:Yep, the Ayrshire Cup, like the Renfrewshire Cup , is quite magnificent.

Although, as you say, 3000 would be a low Killie attendance, I wonder if it would still be higher than if they played Championship English opposition pre season.
True. This season's three home games all v Championship sides drew just under 6,500 in total. But there's more to it. If you assume it's going to be a first team match then by its very nature it will be more competitive than the normal pre-season friendly. It's not a game in which trialists or guys returning from injury can be given a run out. You're exposing players to a full-blooded encounter before the season proper starts. Defeat also has consequences for supporters morale that a humping by Wolves doesn't bring and victory, while putting a smile on fans faces isn't ultimately as satisfying as putting one over QPR (though Ayr would certainly bring a few more than the travelling support of 134 on that occasion).

Crowds have varied a lot. In the 1980s with the clubs already playing each other three or four times a season in the league, gates dropped blow 1,000. In the early part of the 20th century Kilmarnock either couldn't be bothered to enter or played their reserve side, hence the Galstons, Hurlfords, Stevenstons etc appearing on the winners roll. In the 1930s too crowds slumped. And even in the boom times post-war there were times when dates couldn't be found to play the (at that time) two-legged final.

Personally, I preferred it when these matches took place at the end of the season but with that not now occurring until the end of May it's impossible to arrange the fixture even then.

HibeeJibee
Posts: 774
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:36 pm
Contact:

Post by HibeeJibee » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:03 pm

Morton 11-0 Viewfield tonight, so meet St Mirren in held-over Final in July.

docbillp
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:45 pm
Contact:

Who selects who plays for the Victoria Cup?

Post by docbillp » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:42 am

Thanks for the info re Morton and Viewfield Rovers - I presume they, Viewefield Rovers, were the winners of the Victoria Cup this year. I also noticed on Morton's website that they had beaten Carlton 9-0 in last years semi. My question now is: who can enter the Victoria Cup and how many rounds are there? And can anyone supply information about previous Victoria Cup matches? Cheers, Bill P

HibeeJibee
Posts: 774
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:36 pm
Contact:

Re: Who selects who plays for the Victoria Cup?

Post by HibeeJibee » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:12 pm

docbillp wrote:Thanks for the info re Morton and Viewfield Rovers - I presume they, Viewefield Rovers, were the winners of the Victoria Cup this year. I also noticed on Morton's website that they had beaten Carlton 9-0 in last years semi. My question now is: who can enter the Victoria Cup and how many rounds are there? And can anyone supply information about previous Victoria Cup matches? Cheers, Bill P
I'm losing track of what I've posted here, on P&B, or on Tony Kempster... but basically the Victoria Cup is open to Amateur FA clubs in the former country of Renfrewshire. In reality, this now means literally a handful of clubs - the only recent entries I can find are Viewfield, Greenock HSFP, Carlton YMCA, Moorpark and IBM. Some seem to have bitten the dust though. In fact the Carlton YMCA website doesn't have any mention of the Victoria Cup, so perhaps they don't enter now... and I think IBM folded...

In the course of my duties, I corresponded with the Secretary of the West of Scotland FA before Christmas. He holds no record of Victoria Cup ties, leaving the clubs to organise themselves. In fact WoSFA has little hands on activity in the Cup itself either (especially as Morton are not a WoSFA member). The only reliable source for previous Victoria Cup winners may well be the cup itself, or a trawl through local press... although even then, it's a cup involving 3 or 4 weak-ish amateur clubs = maybe no coverage.

So as far as I know (and I've exhausted all obvious archive materials, the club and SAFA websites, the Secretary of the WoSFA, other connections in the SFA, and Morton themselves some time ago): that's the situation. The rules apparently call for both Semi-Finalists to qualify, to meet St Mirren and Morton, but in reality it's been some years since the loser took part.

As I said previously, it has now become routine for the Semi-Final to be held in the correct season, with the Final held over until next pre-season.

I'm sure it provides a helpful payday for the amateur club, plus prestige.

standman
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:57 pm
Contact:

Post by standman » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:27 pm

With regard to the semi being held in the correct season...this isn't always the case.

Last year Morton played their semi three days before the final.

This was the case two years before that as well. In fact that year the crowd for the semi was 900, last night it was only 127.

With the finals now being played pre season, I'd estimate theere will be in the region of 4000 at Love St in JUly (should they get through !)

Scottish
Site Admin
Posts: 7665
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:51 pm
Contact:

Post by Scottish » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:46 pm

standman wrote:I'd estimate theere will be in the region of 4000 at Love St in JUly
That's going to be some size of supermarket :lol:

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 9 guests