A Record... or is it?

Scottish Football Answers to Questions
HibeeJibee
Posts: 773
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:36 pm
Contact:

A Record... or is it?

Post by HibeeJibee » Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:38 pm

This isn't directly Scottish football related, but I thought I'd be as well try...

I'm currently writing an article on Barcelona, and how if they win the Club World Cup next month they'll be the first club ever to win every available trophy in one year (and also hold them all at the same time). Ajax sort of did the former part in 1972... but they had no domestic SuperCup, UEFA didn't recognise the SuperCup, and the Intercontinental Cup was only for European + South American sides. (Article is my for local Student rag...).

However, another claim being made is that Pedro Rodriguez would be the first man ever to score goals in 6 club competitions in one season... if he scores in Abu Dhabi. Being a pedant, my initial reaction is to question that.
http://www.goal.com/en-india/news/140/w ... ng-at-club

Obviously it is on the basis of:
- European tournament
- European SuperCup
- World tournament
- Domestic League
- Domestic Cup
- Domestic SuperCup

I'm presuming the media and stattos have at least checked out the times other clubs played in the above, and not found anyway cases. However...
- some countries have/had League Cups or other cups
- some clubs played Intertoto>UEFA Cup or Champions League>UEFA Cup

Does anyone (in particular 'Scottish'?) know / can check out whether any player in Scotland or England scored in 6 tournaments in one season (for example using the Drybrough, Texaco, Anglo-Italian, Watney, Zenith DS cups etc...?). At some point I'll check out if anyone might have managed it via the second method (dropping/rising = getting 2 Euro tournaments).

Even if we don't have scorers for tournaments... since some of them will be only 1 or 2 games long, just finding out if a CLUB scored in 6 tournaments in a season would allow me to go away and dig for the scorer details. And this isn't for inclusion in my article, so I won't be pirating your researches.

:D

Scottish
Site Admin
Posts: 7665
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:51 pm
Contact:

Re: A Record... or is it?

Post by Scottish » Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:04 pm

HibeeJibee wrote:This isn't directly Scottish football related, but I thought I'd be as well try...

I'm currently writing an article on Barcelona, and how if they win the Club World Cup next month they'll be the first club ever to win every available trophy in one year (and also hold them all at the same time)
Except that they haven't. They didn't win the Copa Catalunya. Admittedly they played mainly reserves but that's no different from the League Cup in England for instance. It is still regarded as a first class tournament.

Regarding players who have scored in six tournaments in a season I suppose there must be many over the years if you take in domestic competitions. Joe Bambrick of Linfield scored in seven different tournaments in 1929-30 plus inter-league and international.

Three Kilmarnock players - Ronnie Hamilton, Brien McIlroy & Jackie McInally - scored in five different tournaments in 1964-65 out of six contested. Hamilton didn't play in the Summer Cup and McInally missed out on the New York tournament otherwise either or both might have scored in six. McIlroy did play in all six but didn't score in the Scottish Cup.

HibeeJibee
Posts: 773
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:36 pm
Contact:

Post by HibeeJibee » Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:20 am

You can't include the Copa Catalunya - it's a regional tournament. By the same token as we don't "include" the Forfarshire, Fife, Southern Counties Cups etc. Where do you draw the line? EOS Shield is technically 1st team.

I agree that players moving clubs is another way to find someone scoring in 6 tournaments, but then again Pedro is "6 competitions while at 1 club".

HibeeJibee
Posts: 773
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:36 pm
Contact:

Post by HibeeJibee » Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:22 am

So perhaps to clarify: has anyone ever scored in 6 national/international tournaments (i.e. - excluding any local cups, friendly tournaments, etc.)?

Scottish
Site Admin
Posts: 7665
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:51 pm
Contact:

Post by Scottish » Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:02 am

HibeeJibee wrote:You can't include the Copa Catalunya - it's a regional tournament. By the same token as we don't "include" the Forfarshire, Fife, Southern Counties Cups etc. Where do you draw the line? EOS Shield is technically 1st team.
I'd be careful about making that suggestion to any Catalans. I don't want to delve into the murky world of Catalan politics save to say that they would virtually all take offence at what they consider their NATIONAL cup competition to be regarded as regional. And no Catalan club would either. Barca president Laporta felt it necessary to issue a statement regretting that the full first team would not be fielded in the competition and asking the Catalan Federation to change the dates of future competitions so as to permit more first team involvement , not something Messrs Ferguson, Wenger (or for that matter Smith or Mowbray) have ever done in domestic competitions when they have fielded weak teams (or even in the Champions League itself - viz Man Utd tonight).

Certainly it can't be compared with county competitions and if you're prepared to include Drybrough, ZDS etc then I see no reason to exclude the Copa Catalunya.

Regarding winning everything available I'd also say Ajax should be included. Yes, the Super Cup was unofficial therefore shouldn't be counted but its hardly their fault that there wasn't a one-off Dutch Super Cup in existence or that the intercontinental trophy was two continents only. It still took two matches in those days and that's as many for one competition as it is for example the Spanish & European Super Cups combined.

Similarly, Joe Bambrick's feat eighty years ago shouldn't really be ignored. He scored goals in every competition his club was eligible to enter.

I'd also include the Community Shield (Charity Shield as was) as this is surely the equivalent of a continental Super Cup. If you accept that then Liverpool scored in seven competitions in 2005-06. The three domestic, the Shield, Champions League, European Super Cup & World Club Championship (though no player scored in more than five of them (Steven Gerrard who didn't play in the European Super Cup game and came on in the Shield match for the last half hour).

But if we are looking at the era of European competition I don't think any player from a British club can claim six (though Gerrard is not alone in scoring in five - as far back as 1979-80 Nottingham Forest's Ian Bowyer did the same - and Forest boycotted the intercontinental competition that season). There was no Super Cup before 1973-74 which effectively rules out previous European trophy winners. English clubs boycotted or ignored the intercontinental until it moved to Tokio and then when they did enter it they couldn't score a goal. Man Utd played in the first World Club Championship but didn't take part in the FA Cup and even though that meant they played in seven competitions in 1999-2000 they didn't score in two of them.

That leaves Liverpool as previously mentioned and Man Utd last season. They scored in six of their seven competitions with Cristiano Ronaldo scoring in five of them. An indication of how - comparatively - easy it is to rack up a decent record is shown by a defender - Nemanja Vidic - scoring in four.

I'd also think it unlikely that any player from a European club has scored in six, given that two of the competitions involved are single matches only. But I'd hesitate to endorse that website's claim as it may well be that a player from another continent may have done so.

HibeeJibee
Posts: 773
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:36 pm
Contact:

Post by HibeeJibee » Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:48 pm

I agree that the Catalans might regard different, however, this supposed first team cup was won by a team finishing in a position equivalent to that of Tranmere>Stockport; the side fielded by Barcelona was entirely made up of reservists, managed by the reserve team coach, in fact a lot of the media sources seem to think it was actually the Reserve team (who play in the same division as the winner); and perhaps most importantly, it gets played on international dates so it's impossible for them to field first XI...

Similarly, I appreciate the Catalan "nationhood" - but for the purposes of football they are a region of Spain. As I said - if we want any reliable set of statistical comparisons we have to draw the line somewhere, surely... and in that case I don't see a reserve team regional cup making it, IMO.

I wouldn't include Drybrough etc. in club trophy comparisons either, btw.

As for Ajax, I agree they did in effect win everything. However, they still didn't hold everything, as Barca might, existing KNVB Cup before winning the SuperCup. A similar KNVB cup elimination cost Ajax in 2005 as well...

Celtic came very close to both, play-off lost to Racing Club denying them.

John Meffen

Post by John Meffen » Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:30 pm

HibeeJibee wrote:You can't include the Copa Catalunya - it's a regional tournament. By the same token as we don't "include" the Forfarshire, Fife, Southern Counties Cups etc.
Theoretically you have to enter your county competition to play in the Scottish Cup [¡¡¡theoretically!!! [like the wee spanish touch!]], so they could be seen as equally as valid as Scottish Qualifying Matches.

I know many don't/can't, but it is meant to be the rule

I certainly count Stirlingshire Cup matches in my FFC statistics

John Meffen

Post by John Meffen » Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:50 pm

Angus Plumb [Falkirk FC] 1951/52

Division B, Scottish Cup, Scottish League Cup, St Mungo's Quaich, Dewar Shield, Stirlingshire Cup, Division C [North & East]
and possibly Division C League Cup, but I'd have to check that last one

Scottish
Site Admin
Posts: 7665
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:51 pm
Contact:

Post by Scottish » Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:48 pm

HibeeJibee wrote:I agree that the Catalans might regard different, however, this supposed first team cup was won by a team finishing in a position equivalent to that of Tranmere>Stockport;
Or Leeds United you could say. In any case the English League Cup has been won by third level sides on more than one occasion and it isn't that long since Gretna reached the Scottish Cup Final.
HibeeJibee wrote:the side fielded by Barcelona was entirely made up of reservists, managed by the reserve team coach, in fact a lot of the media sources seem to think it was actually the Reserve team (who play in the same division as the winner); and perhaps most importantly, it gets played on international dates so it's impossible for them to field first XI...
Five of the starting eleven played for the first team at some point during the season, two of them - Sergio Busquets & Victor Vazquez - in the Champions League. The result appeared on the club website as a first team one, not in the Barca Athletic (the reserves) section, the club president, several other directors and the first team coach all attended the game. The team that played in the final the previous season contained several recognised first teamers. On this occasion the coach decided not to risk any of the first-teamers not away on international duty, citing fear of injury on the artificial turf.

As mentioned previously Laporta urged the Catalan federation to change their calendar so as to avoid clashes with international or other competitions in order for a greater number of first team players to be involved. They agreed to the extent that they have seriously annoyed the lesser clubs by omitting them from the competition altogether. No clubs below level four are now permitted to take part and only two clubs from that level are allowed.
HibeeJibee wrote: I don't see a reserve team regional cup making it, IMO.
Neither do I but if it is good enough for Barcelona to consider this a first team competition in their stats section and in their honours list then that's good enough for me.

Certainly this competition isn't ranked as highly as others. But nor is the League Cup in either Scotland or England but it doesn't stop clubs from claiming it as a worthwhile prize when they win it.
HibeeJibee wrote:Celtic came very close to both, play-off lost to Racing Club denying them.
Celtic were in the same situation as Ajax, having been eliminated from one competition - the European Cup - two weeks before their first match against Racing Club.

HibeeJibee
Posts: 773
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:36 pm
Contact:

Post by HibeeJibee » Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:29 pm

John Meffen wrote:
HibeeJibee wrote:You can't include the Copa Catalunya - it's a regional tournament. By the same token as we don't "include" the Forfarshire, Fife, Southern Counties Cups etc.
Theoretically you have to enter your county competition to play in the Scottish Cup [¡¡¡theoretically!!! [like the wee spanish touch!]], so they could be seen as equally as valid as Scottish Qualifying Matches.

I know many don't/can't, but it is meant to be the rule

I certainly count Stirlingshire Cup matches in my FFC statistics
Is this "got to enter a regional cup to play in the Scottish Cup" not just a myth now...? I'm not aware of any regulation in the SFA or Scottish Cup rules. Morton and Livingston don't even belong to a regional FA, plus few clubs don't play in their regional cups (Glasgow Uni, some teams up the HFL catchment area, Dundee until recently). Glasgow Cup is now U-19s, and there aren't any cups being held in Lanarkshire / Ayrshire any more.

I appreciate Scottish's point, my argument is more that if we want to do any kind of international stat comparison, we can't be including regional cups. Particularly as even the Copa Catalunya has some issues with it...

HibeeJibee
Posts: 773
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:36 pm
Contact:

Post by HibeeJibee » Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:32 pm

scottish wrote:Celtic were in the same situation as Ajax, having been eliminated from one competition - the European Cup - two weeks before their first match against Racing Club.
You're correct - I was going by the round dates (last tie played same day).

Scottish
Site Admin
Posts: 7665
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:51 pm
Contact:

Post by Scottish » Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:30 am

HibeeJibee wrote: Is this "got to enter a regional cup to play in the Scottish Cup" not just a myth now...?
Monty Python once famously declared rule six as "there is no rule six." The SFA do have a rule six for the Scottish Cup, concerning entry to the competition and it states "Entry to the Scottish Association Cup Competition is available to clubs in Full or Associate Membership of the Association."

The only ifs and buts come after that and concern the SJFA, EOSL & SSL and are about eligibility, ground status, kit & colours, acceptance and understanding of the rules and written notification. Nothing to do with county cups or membership of county associations.
HibeeJibee wrote:I appreciate Scottish's point, my argument is more that if we want to do any kind of international stat comparison, we can't be including regional cups. Particularly as even the Copa Catalunya has some issues with it...
Ironically the issues have arisen as a result of raising the standard of the competition. A bit like axing the Third Division and non-league from the Scottish Cup

There is another problem with international comparison and that is these one-offs like Super Cups etc. I certainly wouldn't want to see a competition in which there are only two entrants given the same status as the Champions League or Europa League (and yes I know how Aberdeen fans like to crow about being the only Scottish club to win two European trophies).

Then there are past comparisons. Those players and managers who operated in an era of only two national competitions let alone Europe can appear hard done by in comparison to the post-war period. But on the other hand the League Cup could take up 25% or thereabouts of the season for successful clubs.

I must confess to having a certain sympathy for the position of Joe Bambrick. It wasn't his fault there were no continental competitions. Not only did he score in all seven competitions Linfield entered, he also scored in both full international and inter-league, notched a hat-trick or better on 17 occasions, became the first player to score 50 goals in the Irish League and set up a season's total of 94, establishing a new British record.

Yet within two seasons he had lost his Irish League and UK scoring records to Fred Roberts of Glentoran (though Roberts scored in 'only' five competitions). So it seems only fitting to keep mind that Bambrick scored in seven competitions.

As for Pedro, he hasn't scored in six yet but if he does and claims a record based on it then it will be up to someone to prove him wrong. As stated above there have been several occasions when players have scored in five national and European competitions and while I haven't checked it I would be surprised if you couldn't add a few Cardiff City players to those from the days when they played in the three domestic competitions, the Cup-Winners Cup and the Welsh Cup (now there is a competition which bears comparison with the Copa Catalunya in that it is a national cup but secondary to the knockout tournament played in by the bigger clubs).

The jiggery-pokery involved in moving to the UEFA Cup from both Champions League and Intertoto increases the chance of another player scoring in six but I do suspect a player from outside Europe is more likely to have done so.

kiwiscot
Posts: 168
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:10 am
Location: Christchurch New Zealand
Contact:

A record,,, or is it?

Post by kiwiscot » Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:05 pm

Barcelona also played in both the European Cup & the Inter Cities Fairs Cup in 60/61 season, so that could be worth a look at.

Scottish
Site Admin
Posts: 7665
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:51 pm
Contact:

Re: A record,,, or is it?

Post by Scottish » Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:16 pm

kiwiscot wrote:Barcelona also played in both the European Cup & the Inter Cities Fairs Cup in 60/61 season, so that could be worth a look at.
They did but it isn't really worth looking at as there were no Super Cups etc.

HibeeJibee
Posts: 773
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:36 pm
Contact:

Post by HibeeJibee » Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:40 pm

Anyone got the information to address the query I pose in this post here?:
http://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index ... getnewpost

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 4 guests