'Newman' and 'Junior'

Scottish Football Answers to Questions
bobby s
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'Newman' and 'Junior'

Post by bobby s » Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:20 am

Wading through match reports from the 30's I've noticed the odd reference to Newman & Junior in match reports.

Now, initially I suspected that Newman was a trialist, or a player registered to another SFL(EFL?) club who played presumably with consent whereas Junior was a player registered to a junior club who played as a trialist.

However, having waded through half a dozen with limited success in identifying the player concerned I now suspect that Newman is trialist 1, and Junior is trialist 2. Anyone able to offer an insight into this?

Is there SFA records from the 30's and do they record who Newman or Junior was?
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Insertnamehere
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Post by Insertnamehere » Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:03 am

I dont think there is a hard and fast rule here, looking at reports pre 1930 I have seen a lot of use of Newman and the occasional junior. I have seen one line up that had possibly 7 or 8 Newmen in the eleven. I also have a set of personal reports from 1930 through 1950 matches which was a junior side and Newman was used a lot in these reports but on many occassions the writer has went back and writted that Newman was infact XXXXX and names the player. I would say Newman is a trialist and junior a junior but thats only my opinion. Also I have seen the name AN Other used on a few occassions and in one report read that say McLeod played but then next to it was written, Mcleod was actually some other player..... thats where I get really confuddled!

bobby s
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Post by bobby s » Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:23 am

I've read about players playing under assumed names, I'd guessed it was much more widespread than was reported in the papers.

I seen one reference to a player as "being from the junior family", which is why I assumed it explicitly referred to a player on trial from a junior club.

However, after that I came across a reference to a "Newman" being Quinn of Denny Hibs who I would have assumed to be a junior club - which now I think about it might have been a juvenile club or non league senior.
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Post by Scottish » Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:31 am

bobby s wrote:However, after that I came across a reference to a "Newman" being Quinn of Denny Hibs who I would have assumed to be a junior club - which now I think about it might have been a juvenile club or non league senior.
Denny Hibs were a junior side. In fact they won the Junior Cup in 1931.

I'd have made similar assumptions regarding 'newman,' 'junior' etc but on reflection I doubt if clubs stuck to any hard and fast rules, particularly where more than one player is concerned. I think they used different names to avoid using 'Newman 1,' 'Newman 2' etc.

Makes it a bit difficult if you're searching for a player whose real name was Newman though.

Vasco
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Post by Vasco » Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:54 pm

Anyone old enough to remember the Saturday Evening Times late edition in the 1960s should recall that the Junior team line-ups (lines-up?) often had Newman and Trialist to indicate when a player was not yet officially signed by the club.

This may back up the theory for the terms Newman and Junior at a higher level. In other words, at senior level Junior indicated a newcomer from the lower level whilst in Junior football Trialist was the equivalent. In both cases Newman would refer to someone coming from the same grade of football.

Vasco

Sat31March1928
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Post by Sat31March1928 » Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:35 pm

Some players used to have other professions.

Hearts used to change players names so that their employers would not know that they were playing football instead of not being at their regular job.
Jackson; James; Jackson; James; Jackson

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Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:38 pm

Nomes de Guerre were also quite common in the 1870s, 80s & 90s to hide identities from emplyers/parents, to hide professionals in other sports(not uncommon with some Queen`s Park players) or when turning out for one club while being a member of or registered with another. I have never been able to discover why Charles Campbell, the great Queen`s Park & Scotland defender(8 Cup winners medals & 13 caps) turned out for Queen`s for a few seasons as "C.Elliot". Everyone knew he was Charles Campbell.

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Post by John Meffen » Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:19 am

In the first FA Cup final Morton Betts played [and scored]for Wanderers as "A.H.Chequer", as it is believed he played for Harrow Chequers in an earlier round, so it's been going on since competitive football started

I have found that quite often in th 19th Century the name used: "McLeod", "Smith" etc, was often the player's mother's maiden name

But I've never understood why Alex Gillespie of Falkirk FC in the 1880s often played as "Anderson" when he was in charge of his own family company

kiwiscot
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Newman and Junior

Post by kiwiscot » Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:08 pm

When I was a kid I could never work out how Scotlands World Flyweight Champion Walter Mc Gowan was managed by his father who was called Joe Gans.

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Re: Newman and Junior

Post by Scottish » Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:53 pm

kiwiscot wrote:When I was a kid I could never work out how Scotlands World Flyweight Champion Walter Mc Gowan was managed by his father who was called Joe Gans.
Me tae. Especially as there never seemed much of a resemblance between Walter and Joe!

Image

Image

For younger readers: Walter's father, Thomas, was his trainer/manager and a former boxer himself who fought under the pseudonym of Joe Gans, the original being a top boxer of the 1890s who inspired many others to adopt his name; a practice common in boxing as the achievements of Messrs Robinson & Leonard - both 'Sugar Ray' - will testify.

McGowan (whose autograph I got at a Killie v Hamilton match in 1965 but lost soon after) was world flyweight champion in the 1960s. The thing I could never understand was how his first defeat as a pro was to Jackie Brown. I mean, I've seen the movie and she is one tough lady but beat McGowan? No way. Impossible. Not a chance. And not because she's a woman either

Image

Walter was a flyweight. Jackie could never have made the eight stone limit!

And while we're on the subject are Kilmarnock & Celtic the only Scottish clubs to have been managed by two world heavyweight champions? Tommy Burns & James Jeffries for Killie and Burns and David Hay for Celtic?

kiwiscot
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Newman and Junior

Post by kiwiscot » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:42 pm

I dont know about heavyweight champions managing Scottish clubs but the corner shop near Kilbowie Park a few years ago was owned by Mohammed Ali.

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Post by Scottish » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:46 pm

And if he told you he'd no change because his float was like a butterfly, no doubt you'd have felt stung like a bee!

iggy
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Post by iggy » Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:14 am

In at least the 1940s and early 1950s "A.N. Other" was not uncommon. I never thought that Junior/Newman and the like was anything other than
just a name fancied by a club.

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Post by ScottishFA » Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:50 pm

Interested to hear on Radio Scotland yesterday that "A Trialist" who came on as a sub in the 32nd minute for Arbroath was actually their new manager, Jim Weir. He was born 15 June 1969, hence aged 40 - so given that he is well into the veteran stage, and is the one that picks the team, calling him a 'trialist' could hardly be further from the truth!

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Post by GMartin » Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:02 pm

Remember a game Airdrie v St Mirren at Broomfield back in april 77, the game was on Sportscene that night, Archie McPherson came out with a cracker, along the lines

" Airdrie have two new players playing today, and would you believe they are both called Newman".

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