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Help!! - East of Scotland Shield - my head hurts...

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:56 pm
by HibeeJibee
I've picked up again with my research on the East of Scotland Shield. The 1970s and early 1980s are proving a total mind-bending nightmare, however, I've got a set of inconsistencies with the late 1940s as well... which is a bit simpler - and I've been able to lay-out what they are below. Can anyone clarify the situation?

HR... Hibs Results database
HP... Hibs Programmes website
LH... London Hearts website
(HO = Held-Over)

1948-49, 1949-50 + 1950-51 EOS Shields

??... 18 Apr 1949... Hearts 6-0 Edinburgh City... LH

> LH + Wikipedia say this was a Final; The Scotsman says this was a Semi-Final:

??... 14 Apr 1950... Hibs ?-? Leith... HP
SF... 10 May 1950... Hearts 5-2 Leith... LH
Final... 15 May 1950... Hibs 2-1 Hearts... LH

> Obviously if the above 3 games are all real, at least 1 must be for a different edition to the others
> Weren't Hibs on tour (in Germany?) in May 1950?

> Could the 15 May 1950 game be confused with the below game, also on London Hearts (same date, following year, same score) but also 2 Hibs sources?

Final... 15 May 1951... Hibs 2-1 Hearts... HR, HP, LH

> "The Winners" say winners were Hearts (1948-49), Hearts (1949-50), Hibs (1950-51)
> Wikipedia says winners were Hearts (1948-49... 6-0 over Edinburgh City), Hibs (1949-50... 2-1 over Hearts), Hibs (1950-51... no match)

My conclusion is the 1948-49 to 1950-51 results must include held-over games and/or perhaps some mistakes.

I'm thinking it may be possible an edition was unplayed (perhaps 1950-51) due to repeat held-overs, i.e. to get it back in the correct season? And that it's thus possible that one edition has been double-counted, perhaps most likely in "The Winners"?

Edinburgh City also dropout in 1949... so I guess it's possible they had a Semi-Final tie scheduled versus someone that they scratched / or just could not fulfil...

If anyone can help with this, in whole or part, I'd be most grateful.

Re: Help!! - East of Scotland Shield - my head hurts...

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:08 pm
by HibeeJibee
Also does anyone have details of Leith Athletic or Edinburgh City games, from the 1940s and early 1950s?

They seem to drop in-and-out inexplicably from season-to-season (particularly Edinburgh City).

Re: Help!! - East of Scotland Shield - my head hurts...

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:37 pm
by Scottish
Dave Beecroft produced a book and disk a few years ago on Edinburgh City. Following EoS Shield info is from the disk

1946-47 SF Hibernian H 23/4/47, 0-9, 3,118
W.Mellors A.Proudfoot C.Hall W.Evans J.Miller J.Hewitt J.Steel A.Jamieson J.McLauchlin S.S.Duncan D.McLeod

1947-48 SF Hearts A 7/4/1948, 0-4
W.Mellors A.Proudfoot Stevenson Dalgleish J.Miller D.D.Veitch J.Duncan Gavin W.Bauld McMahon Conway

No mention either on disk or in the book of any games in 1948-49, their last senior season.

Re: Help!! - East of Scotland Shield - my head hurts...

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:50 pm
by HibeeJibee
Thanks. As I say London Hearts + The Scotsman have them losing 6-0 at Tynecastle on 18 April 1949. I've also got them playing the following games during WWII, take it no data on these on the Beecroft CD?

1941-42... 29 Nov 1941... R1... St Bernards 7-1 Edinburgh City... (Source: St Bernards by George Park)
1942-43... 01 May 1943... SF... Hearts 2-0 Edinburgh City... (Source: LH)
1943-44... 29 Apr 1944... SF... Hibs 6-1 Edinburgh City... (Source: HR, HP, Hibernian in WWII by Brian Mark)
1944-45... 10 Feb 1945... SF... Hibs 5-3 Edinburgh City... (Source: HR, HP)
1945-46... No Record

I'm guessing City were invited to enter to provide more interest... they'd not participated during the 1930s, despite playing in the Second Division.

Re: Help!! - East of Scotland Shield - my head hurts...

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:06 pm
by Scottish
It has less info than you have there. Only the half-time for the 1941-42 game and no score for the 1944-45 match. No info at all for 1945-46. The dates you have are confirmed

There are line-ups for 1942-43, 43-44 & 44-45 as follows:

1942-43 - MacDonald,A.Stewart,R.Mills,J.Rutherford,R.Hope,J.Blair,S.Richardson,H.Whitecross,H.Waddell,R.Ross,A.Ross

1943-44 MacDonald,Tatersall,Mills,Rutherford,Hope,Blair,MacLeod,Whitecross,Miller,MacKay,White

1944-45 Team: MacDonald,Stewart,Roy,Farmer,Hope,Blair,
Forwards from Gibson,Patience,Brown,Miller,Monteith,Robinson.

The Beecroft disk also has them playing St Bernard's away in a preliminary round match on 29/11/1940 but with no record of the result. As you know the St Bernard's book says they didn't play at senior level that season.

Re: Help!! - East of Scotland Shield - my head hurts...

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:21 pm
by HibeeJibee
Cheers. I take it there aren't any Shield games noted for before 1940-41? That would confirm my suspicion that City came in due to WWII, and the reduction of the fixture list and increase in travelling restrictions.

The EOS Shield wasn't played in 1940-41... I haven't ascertained why - although obviously, it was a time of acute national emergency. Further, since the North-Eastern League wasn't formed until 1941-42, Leith and St Bernards weren't playing regularly. Although that November 1940 suggestion is a puzzler.

EDIT: Actually it's a mistake. Since they did play St Bernards on 29 November 1941 in a Preliminary tie, the one that ended 7-1 (Scorers were J Wilkie (4), W Wilkie (2), Dougan / Veitch) and 29th November 1940 was a Friday.

Is there a good source for Leith Athletic results (i.e. in the St Bernards [George Park], Raith [Litster] sort of vein)?

Also anyone able to help with the original post i.e. the 1948-49 to 1950-51 editions, that would be great. It's one of only 2 real 'holes' I have left to try and fill...

Re: Help!! - East of Scotland Shield - my head hurts...

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:13 pm
by Scottish
Well, he has them as separate games. One under the tab for 1940-41 and the other for 1941-42 with no information for the first one and the half-time score for the second. I think you're probably right that the 1941-42 game has been entered twice given that St Bernard's were inactive that season. While there are some other minor competition entries the first mention of the EoS Shield is 1940-41. Sorry, no idea about Leith, certainly nothing like the books you mention.

Re: Help!! - East of Scotland Shield - my head hurts...

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:06 pm
by ScottishFA
The Hibs handbook for 50-51 gives the result of the game v Leith on 14 April 1950 as 4-0 for Hibs (it was a Friday evening at Easter Road). No scorers given.

There is no mention of a game on 15 May that season (the last game was on 1 May in London v Spurs) but there was a match on 15 May 1951, Hibs 2 Hearts 1 in the Final. I have the programme for the game, a souvenir edition to mark Hibs winning the League Championship, but there is no mention of the context of the final. But presumably that was the previous season's final, held over.

Those are the only East of Scotland Shield matches listed in those seasons.

Moving on to subsequent seasons:
3 May 1952, Hearts 0, Hibs 3

4 May 1953, Hibs 7, Leith Athletic 1 (SF)
7 May 1953, Hibs 4, Hearts 2 (Final)

I have the programme for the Leith game and it states: "This is the first time for some years that it has been possible to carry through the East of Scotland Shield competition early round, and the winners of this evening's semi-final will oppose Hearts, who beat Berwick Rangers last Thursday, in the final which will be arranged as quickly as possible."

One other source of info is the programme collector guides. The Hearts guide has
11 April 1949, Hearts v Hibs (47/48 final)
18 April 1949, Hearts v Edinburgh City (no context given)

Presumably the Edinburgh City game was a semi-final for 48/49, and the competition dragged on and possibly even overlapped into the following season.

I presume there is a logical reason for all this, somewhere.

Re: Help!! - East of Scotland Shield - my head hurts...

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:49 pm
by StAndrewsHMFC
I can't help you with Leith Athletic just now but I'm slowly trying to compile a complete record of them (only in the early 1900's from their formation just now), let me know if your still looking in a year or two!

As for the 1949-1950 conundrum can I suggest that the final for 49-50 and 50-51 has been duplicated, both finals falling on exactly the same date makes me slightly suspiscious, might be something to look out for

Re: Help!! - East of Scotland Shield - my head hurts...

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:31 am
by HibeeJibee
Thanks to both. As can be seen from trying to deduce the situation, the competition often became a complete mess due to the holding-over of matches... This leads to some bizarre occurrences during its history (for example: Hearts won the 1964-65 edition on 4th May 1966, and the 1965-66 edition but 3 days later!!).

I can confirm that the 1947-48 Final was played on 11th April 1949... this is confirmed in The Scotsman.
And from 1951-52 onwards (3rd May Hearts 0-3 Hibs) it's back on schedule.

ScottishFA - does the Hibs Handbook for 1950/51 say what stage Hibs 4-0 Leith on 14 April 1950 was (i.e. Semi-Final or Final?).

StAndrewsHMFC - thanks for your input. I may actually call upon you sooner, if I have any problems with Leith games from the Victorian era!!

I have been intending for some time to get down to Easter Road and inspect the Shield myself (bizarrely I actually presented it at the most recent Final in May, but not really sufficient time to get out the notepad and paper!!) and this should confirm who won X edition, any unplayed/uncompleted editions, etc - Bernard Stocks has told me his listing wasn't taken from the Shield, which will probably explain some of the discrepancies.

Re: Help!! - East of Scotland Shield - my head hurts...

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:15 am
by HibeeJibee
Having checked London Hearts... it's some kind of "database error" regarding the Edinburgh City game, it gives it as a Final on the season list but a SF on the game's individual page.

More relevantly, the 2 games on 15 May of the consecutive years have different line-ups listed. I'm sure these must therefore be different matches. Entries...
15 May 1950...
15 May 1951...

I'm therefore going to postulate that the breakdown is as follows:

1948-49 Edition
> SF... 18 April 1949... Hearts 6-0 Edinburgh City
> SF... (Held-Over) 14 April 1950... Hibs 4-0 Leith
> Final... (Held-Over) 15 May 1950... Hibs 2-1 Hearts

1949-50 Edition
> SF... 10 May 1950... Hearts 5-2 Leith
> Final... (Held-Over)... 15 May 1951... Hibs 2-1 Hearts
[Edinburgh City were no longer a Senior]

1950-51 Edition - unplayed

That makes sense, although it has some intrigues (i.e. Hearts started 1949-50 edition 5 days before finishing 1948-49 edition). But it works.

An alternative is that Hibs/Hearts scratch ties in some year(s) - which could have meant unplayed Final(s) with the tie awarded to the side which played its SF. Or they didn't enter/didn't play a SF.

I'll continue digging. The SDA ending in 1950 is a considerable frustration.

Re: Help!! - East of Scotland Shield - my head hurts...

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:27 am
by Scottish
HibeeJibee wrote:
I'll continue digging. The SDA ending in 1950 is a considerable frustration.
Although Glasgow-based the Evening Times picks up where The Scotsman leaves off, available online from Jan 2nd 1951 onwards. Another potential source is The (also Glasgow-based) Bulletin. If you go to the Google Newspapers Archive page then it says there are only fifty issues of this paper available, all from 1957. But a little bit of digging around produces a 'back door' entrance here which will provide access to over 2,500 editions from 1951-1960.

Re: Help!! - East of Scotland Shield - my head hurts...

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:39 am
by ScottishFA
Here's some more info to muddy the waters.

First, the Hibs handbook for 50/51 doesn't state what stage the Leith game was at.

However, last night I dug out some old East of Scotland FA handbooks (quaintly called 'The Edinburgh Football Calendar') and they provide further clues.

The 1952/53 handbook gives the results of the previous season's matches as:

Challenge Shield 1949/50
Hibernian 3, Heart of Midlothian 0

It also lists the results in the East of Scotland Cup for 1951/52.

And further, in the list of former winners of the Shield, it only goes up to 1950. Recent winners were:
1940 Hearts
1941 No game
1942 Hearts
1943 Hibs
1944 Hearts
1945 Hibs
1946 Hearts
1947 Hibs
1948 Hibs
1949 Hibs
1950 Hibs

All of which indicates strongly that the game on 3 May 1952 was actually the 49/50 final held over for two years!

The next edition I have is 1966/67, which has a different set of winners...
1940-43 the same
1944 Hearts
1946 Hearts
1947 Hibs
1949 Hibs
1951 Hibs
1952 Hibs
1954 Hearts
(and annually from then on)

And finally, the edition for 1974/75 lists:
1944 Hearts
1945 No comp.
1946 Hearts
1947 Hibs
1948 No comp.
1949 Hibs
1950 No comp
1951 Hibs
1952 Hibs
1953 No comp.
1954 Hearts
(and annually from then on)

Trying to equate all of that is beyond my powers of deduction, but I hope it helps you to work it all out.

Re: Help!! - East of Scotland Shield - my head hurts...

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:45 pm
by smokiesnwine
I checked the Hibs v Leith programme from April 1950 and it mentions that the game is a first round tie held over from the 1948/49 season's tournament.

Re: Help!! - East of Scotland Shield - my head hurts...

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:00 pm
by HibeeJibee
Smokiesandwine... thanks very much for that. It would tally with my postulation, although obviously I intend to find some solid evidence from press etc.

ScottishFA... some of that does muddy the water, and I think the latter 1/2 must include errors. I've found consistent Finals all the way through from Victorian era, to the aforementioned 1948-49>1950-51 issue, with only a couple of held-overs. Certainly not all the gaps that those listings suggest. And for example I've got a Final (held-over) for the 1947-48 edition - and a report in The Scotsman saying that it's the 1947-48 Final held-over - and similarly Bernard Stocks has it with a winner as well. Frustrating!!

Ultimately I need to get down to Easter Road ASAP and arrange to have a look at the Shield. (We don't call it in anually, like the other EOS cups - whoever holds it just take it to the following season's match). Hopefully that will then iron out some inconsistencies, and give me a base to work from. Unless it was wrongly engraved at some time!!