Fife/Lothian/Stirlingshire club histories

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HibeeJibee
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Fife/Lothian/Stirlingshire club histories

Post by HibeeJibee » Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:03 pm

As some of you will remember, I have been slowly... rather in fits-and-spurts as work and other commitments have allowed... been working my way through building-up an inventory of the history of the East of Scotland Shield. My hope is eventually to publish something in some form but for the moment it's very much a task of trying to get a full list of results (and results which fit - the thing having been held-over so often making a complete nightmare at times...), and from there line-ups, reports and so forth.

Anyway I have got to the stage where in my mind I can happily 'sign-off' everything from 1903-04 onward. This was the first season of the Shield in a 'new guise' which was very much like it's equivalent out West, the Glasgow Cup: being only for clubs in the county association which were in the Scottish Football League. From 1897-98 to 1902-03 inclusive, mirroring the Scottish Cup, non-leaguers played the East of Scotland Qualifying Cup whose Semi-Finalsts qualified for the Quater-Finals of the Shield. Prior to this again mirroring the Scottish Cup, the Shield was split into Preliminaries and Tournament Proper from 1891-92 to 1896-97 inclusive. And prior to that was simple all-in.


Anyway, enough of the history!! As will be obvious - it all means that things are harder to research before 1903... most particularly before 1897... as it's not just a case of finding-out whom Hibs and Hearts played and working your way back through opponents. And an additional 'hole' sits for 3 years in the 1890s when they refused to enter it.

Before diving into newspapers... both digitised like The Scotsman and undigitised local papers... which will have to bear most of the burden, I'm keen to exhaust all of the possible published sources which could include pre-1903 Shield results. So far I've noted:
* London Hearts website (Hearts)
* Hibs Programmes website; Hibs Results Archive; iHibs - now FitbaStats (Hibs)
* George Park's "St Bernard's FC - or When the Well Ran Dry!" (St Bernard's)
* John Litster's "Always Next Season" (Raith Rovers)
* Stewart Davidson's "Scottish Football Review of 1877/78"
which have all yielded greater or lesser titbits of use.

So a simple question really... are then any other published books / websites for clubs in Fife and the Lothians which could be of use? Or contemporary annuals, periodicals, etc.?

Many thanks for any advice.
Last edited by HibeeJibee on Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

gogsy1968
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Re: Sources for Fife/Lothians club results for pre-1903

Post by gogsy1968 » Sun Oct 09, 2011 6:22 pm

'The Broxburn Football story' by Gus Martin

HibeeJibee
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Re: Sources for Fife/Lothians club results for pre-1903

Post by HibeeJibee » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:11 am

Many thanks.

Stirlingshire/Clackmannanshire clubs also entered for a while: any books/website on those clubs which might include listings of Shield or EOS Qualifying Cup matches?

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Re: Fife/Lothian club histories

Post by HibeeJibee » Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:35 pm

I've changed the thread title from "Sources for Fife/Lothians club results for pre-1903"... was perhaps a bit off-putting.


Unfortunately a search of the NLS Main Catalogue has not revealed "The Broxburn Football Story" or Dave Beecroft's "Marine Drive to Meadowbank", which is disappointing. Hopefully the Edinburgh Central Library may have copies, but if not - does anyone know where I could obtain a copy of either (or have one they don't need and are prepared to part with for a reasonable price!!)?

I also hope to get a look at an "Alloa Athletic Commemorative Handbook" (1982: centenary history presumably), albeit doesn't sound too promising; the "Historic Saints of Edinburgh" (George Campbell); and there seem to be some bits and pieces on Fife clubs, Arniston Rangers, some books on Falkirk of course - plus Vol 1 of "Rejected FC of Scotland" and "The Defunct Soccer Clubs of Edinburgh".

Anything else?


Seperately - I have come across a Bathgate Thistle history, by Ian Anderson. Thistle were only founded in 1937, of course - does the book have material on "precedessors"?

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Re: Fife/Lothian/Stirlingshire club histories

Post by prorege » Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:04 am

Most of what you list will be of little help.

'The Defunct Soccer Clubs of Edinburgh' is a manuscript Primary School project. Don't waste your time.

Historic Saints of Edinburgh has good narrative but few stats, and is eclipsed by the more recent book.

The Alloa 1982 publication is really a handbook for the 82/3 season with a few historical snippets added.

The Arniston 'book' is similar to the Newtongrange, Bonnyrigg and Whitehill Welfare efforts. The full text is available on the Arniston website.

http://www.arnistonrangers.co.uk/

Rejected FC of Scotland was great in its day but suffers from many incaccuracies and assumptions.

The 'Complete Record' Disk that accompanied the first edition of Beecroft's Edinburgh City book is excellent - includes reserve fixtures as well as the first team.

The 4-volume Falkirk History by Michael White is good but doesn't have comprehensive stats, particularly in the volume covering the earlier years.

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Re: Fife/Lothian/Stirlingshire club histories

Post by HibeeJibee » Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:25 am

OK, thanks greatly, I'll steer-clear of some of those.

In the light of the new day Falkirk will probably be of limited use - the Stirlingshire FA proper was formed not long after they came into existence, and clubs from that county had a "briefer flirtation" with the Edinburgh FA; though Clackmannan, Alloa Athletic, etc. stuck it out longer, through the Clackmannashire FA remaining affiliated to the East of Scotland FA... Alloa did not enter the Stirlingshire Cup until 1899, and Clackmannan until 1907.

Hopefully SFA and (if I can get sight of any) Edinburgh/East of Scotland FA annuals from the Victorian period will also help by identifying how many clubs should've been entering/names of clubs with no results in a particular season/etc. I've found that approach quite fruitful in an test season, 1880-81, where I've fixed on 31 entrants and am only missing 5 R1 ties.

John Meffen

Re: Fife/Lothian/Stirlingshire club histories

Post by John Meffen » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:34 pm

"Dunfermline Athletic Football Club: A Centenary History, 1885-1985" by John Hunter

Haven't read it so really can't tell if has such details as EoS results, it might also coincide with when they were a junior team

None of the Stirlingshire clubs had anything to with the East of Scotland, it was only later when the Stirlingshire FA absorbed the clackmannanshire & Linlithgowshire FAs that teams who had played in the EoS appeared in the Stirlingshire Cup, and I don't think any of them has a published history.

There really should be an Alloa history, but I haven't seen one

plenty of newspapers though

Sorry

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Re: Fife/Lothian/Stirlingshire club histories

Post by BMCCOLL » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:49 pm

Most of the EOS Shield results for seasons 1891-92 and 1896 through to 1903 can be downloaded via the SFHA site.

Add /1896-97.doc, /1897-98.doc etc to the end of the main site address (http://scottish-football-historical-archive.com) and you can download the documents direct to your PC.
http://sfha.org.uk/

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Re: Fife/Lothian/Stirlingshire club histories

Post by HibeeJibee » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:35 pm

Thanks greatly Brian... didn't realise you had those on SFHA. That'll be very useful to check with/add from, and if I've got anything you haven't, I'll let you know.

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Re: Fife/Lothian/Stirlingshire club histories

Post by BMCCOLL » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:48 pm

No problem. I have all the seasons up to 1920-21, just add the seasons as instructed above to the end of the site address and the document will download.
http://sfha.org.uk/

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Re: Fife/Lothian/Stirlingshire club histories

Post by HibeeJibee » Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:23 pm

Anyone able to profer advice over potential usefulness of:

* Bluebells & Cuckoos – History of Football in Penicuik & Kirkhill

* Bathgate Thistle – A History (Ian Anderson)

* Fitba’ in Loanhead (David Adams)

Thanks in advance for any help.

gogsy1968
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Re: Fife/Lothian/Stirlingshire club histories

Post by gogsy1968 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:28 am

Bathgate Thistle history covers senior football in the first couple of chapters but no results or anything from East of Scotland Shield

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Re: Fife/Lothian/Stirlingshire club histories

Post by StAndrewsHMFC » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:32 pm

Bathgate Thistle history skims over the background of football in Bathgate without any great detail before focusing on the junior club.

Fitba in Loanhead doesn't have much information in it at all to be honest

Cuckoos and Bluebells lists various Penicuik teams performances in cups where known so would be pretty useful possibly

Some other stuff- Stewart Davidson has a complete listing of results from a season in the VIctorian period in a booklet, can't remember what one off hand. There was a happy land is a good booklet on Lochgelly United, can't remember if it has any list of results (or even if Lochgelly Utd where around at the time to enter!). Personally I've been (very slowly) correlating Leith's results, but if your only looking for up to 1903 I've got that period covered, I'm not certain that I've got all the results in the ESS, but I've got all the Edinburgh/East of Scotland League if your doing that aswell (On a related matter if anyone could tell me what the Gibson Cup was I'd be much obliged)

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Re: Fife/Lothian/Stirlingshire club histories

Post by HibeeJibee » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:43 am

Aye, I have Stewart's Review of 1877-78. These were early days of course and the tournament was nice and simple... 4 R1 ties, 2 SFs, and the Final!! It get messy later-on of course - the old-fashoioned model of including everyone on R1, and giving university sides exemptions until R3; and in some early cases, sending both clubs through if a tie had been drawn twice.

For example, off the top of my head, there is a season (1880-81 I think but not 100%) where 31 clubs enter. Nowadays it'd be 15 ties + 1 bye in R1, play down from there... back then it was 15 ties in R1 >> 7 ties + 1 bye in R2 >> the 9 teams in R3 (University entered here) played 4 ties + 1 bye, but University and Rovers drew twice, thus both progressed >> 3 ties in the 'Quarter-Finals' >> 1 tie + 1 bye in the 'Semi-Finals'.

Lochgelly Utd were a stalwart in Victorian times, so I'll certainly follow-up that.

R.e. Leith Athletic results, I actually sent you a Private Message a few weeks ago, check your inbox (top left of this screen).

No idea on the Gibson Cup, I'm afraid.

gogsy1968
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Re: Fife/Lothian/Stirlingshire club histories

Post by gogsy1968 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:53 pm

taken from "There was a Happyland"

1888/9 East of Scotland Shield 2nd rd Burntisland Thistle beat Lochgelly Athletic by five goals to one (location?)
1889/90 East of Scotland Shield ?? rd Burntisland Thistle beat Lochgelly Athletic by fourteen goals to one (location?)

1890/1 ist rd Lochgelly United bt 4th VRBS
2nd rd Lochgelly United bt Polton Vale
3rd rd Hearts wo scr Lochgelly United

1891/2 ?? rd Raith Rovers beat Lochgelly United by four goals (location?)

1892/3 1st rd Lochgelly United 7-0 Alloa Ath (location?)
2nd rd Lochgelly United 3-1 Cowdenbeath (location?)
3rd rd Raith Rovers 8-2 Lochgelly United (location?)

1893/4 Nothing mentioned

1894/5 1st rd Lochgelly United 10-1 Townhill (location?)

S-Final Bo'ness 6-1 Lochgelly United (location?)

1895/6 1st rd Lochgelly United 5-0 Raith Rovers (location?)

S-Final Mossend Swifts 3-1 Lochgelly United (location?)

1896/7 Early rounds lochgelly United beat Clackmannan and Edinburgh University
4th round Lochgelly United 1-1 Cowdenbeath
rep Cowdenbeath 4-2 Lochgelly United ab 85 due to Lochgelly fans invading pitch
2nd rep Cowdenbeath 5-2 Lochgelly United

1897/8 Nothing mentioned

1898/9 1st rd Cowdenbeath 2-3 Lochgelly United
S-Final Hearts 3-1 Lochgelly United

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