Edinburgh Cup 1875-76

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BMCCOLL
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Edinburgh Cup 1875-76

Post by BMCCOLL » Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:00 pm

As most of you will probably know, I'm collating the results of the various EOS competitions. I've done up to 1936-37 season so far, with only several results/ties to find, but have hit a snag with the very first competition. The final was played at the Meadows on 11 Mar 1876, 3rd ERV beating Thistle 6-0, but I've drawn a blank as to any other ties. Was the tournament played out over several rounds, or was it in fact a 'bogus' competition, with only a 'final' being played? Any thoughts?
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HibeeJibee
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Re: Edinburgh Cup 1875-76

Post by HibeeJibee » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:05 pm

I too have pursued ties from this first cup, essentially in vain. However issue 12 of the Scottish Football Historian has an article about 3rd Edinburgh Rifle Volunteers stating:
a general wish having been expressed as to the desirability of starting an Association for Edinburgh, Mr Watt convened a meeting of representatives from various clubs, who, without more ado, constituted themselves in the Edinburgh Association, and elected office-bearers from their number, FC Watt being appointed Secretary.,

A cup was next mooted, and subscription lists started among the members of the club. In these days, when so much is done for the members of our leading clubs, it is refreshing to think of the "good old days" when not only all club expenses, but the first Cup of the Edinburgh Association, was paid for by the individual members of the competing teams.

The ties were drawn, and the competition entered on with great zest. The Third met the Hearts and Hanover in the preliminary ties, and had draws with both clubs before a final settlement could be arrived at, the Hanover ultimately being defeated by 2 goals to nothing.

During the interval of cup ties they were extending their friendshops with Western clubs, and on 21st October a team called Western Wanderers, composed of 1st Lanark [sic] & Rangers men, was met and defeated by 1 goal to nil.


[there follows mention of friendlies as follows... defeating Thistle 1-0; losing to "their first friends" Rovers 4-0 at Third Lanark; losing 2-0 to Towerhill on 18th December in a game that inspired 3rd ERV to fully adopt passing; then beating Hearts, Glasgow West End, Northern and 23rd Renfrew Volunteers]

At last the all important final arrived. Lamont was again appointed captain, and, determined to win, made a change in the team. The late William Donnelly (Hibernians) was referee, and after the uual preliminaries the battle began. The Volunteers from the start had the game in hand and the forwards, being in the humour, soon placed the result beyond doubt.

When hostilities ceased, the Edinburgh Cup was won for the first time by the 3rd Edinburgh - the originators of the game in the East - by 6 goals to nil.


[the cup final team is then given; and the article closes with note that a split developed in the club leading to some players forming "Swifts", and the season finished with a matcch on 5th April against Rovers]
Last edited by HibeeJibee on Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Edinburgh Cup 1875-76

Post by HibeeJibee » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:17 pm

Should say: the article's entitled "Early Edinburgh Football" and was apparently published in 'Scottish Sport' January 24th 1890.

It begins by noting that the article is inspired by the recent decision of the East of Scotland FA [note the new name - adopted some years prior] to award badges to the 3rd ERV team who were "the first winners of the old Edinburgh Cup". It notes as "most remarkable" the fact that 10 of the 11 are still in Edinburgh, with "the eleventh man (Wood) being supposed to be deceased".


So implication is:

R1?... 3rd ERV D-D Hearts; 3rd ERV W-L Hearts

SF?... 3rd ERV D-D Hanover; 3rd ERV 2-0 Hanover

Final... 3rd ERV 6-0 Thistle
(Sat 11th Mar 1876 in the Meadows)

There's an inconsistency between the 1890 article and the 1876 Scotsman report, as the latter says the 'umpire' was "Mr O'Brien" and not Donnelly. The 3rd ERV line-ups are identical in both but the order of the 6 forwards (2-2-6 formation) varies.


Also worth saying that there were only 7 clubs in the second edition in 1876-77 - at the R1 draw "the Dunfermline FC was admitted to the Association and it was announced that the Heart of Mid-lothian club had broken up" - so one would suspect 7 or fewer in the inaugural edition the season before.

ScottishFA
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Re: Edinburgh Cup 1875-76

Post by ScottishFA » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:51 am

I've done a trawl through the Scotsman football reports for that season, and there was a match on 11 December 1875 in which 3rd ERV beat Hanover 2-0 on the Meadows. It is described as "the second match in the first tie for the cup subscribed for by the clubs in the eastern district of Scotland".

This probably means it was a replay, but is a bit ambiguous - ie there could have been a different first round tie the previous week. However, as a 'first tie' I would take a guess that the person writing in 1890 had confused the Scottish Cup tie v Hearts (see below) with an Edinburgh Cup match. Thistle must have beaten someone else to reach the final, perhaps Hearts.

Other 3rd ERV results in the autumn of 1875 include:
28 August: 3rd ERV 2, Hearts 0 at Meadows 'the opening match of the 3d Edinburgh'
no more reports until:
16 October: Hearts 0, 3rd ERV 0 at Craigmount Park, Scottish Cup 1
23 October: 3rd ERV 0, Hearts 0 at Meadows, Scottish Cup 1 replay [both teams went through to next round]
30 October: no report
6 November: Thistle 0, 3rd ERV 0 at Meadows, Scottish Cup 2 (abandoned 65 mins, heavy rain)
13 Nov: 3rd ERV 1, Thistle 0, Scottish Cup 2 replay
20 Nov: no report
27 Nov: Rovers 4, 3rd ERV 0, Scottish Cup 3
4 Dec: no report - presumably the first match between 3rd ERV and Hanover
11 Dec: 3rd ERV 2, Hanover 0 at Meadows, Edinburgh Cup 1

After that, I can't find any 3rd ERV matches described as cup ties until the final on 11 March.

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Re: Edinburgh Cup 1875-76

Post by HibeeJibee » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:48 pm

It's conceivable there might've only been 4 entrants: 3rd ERV, Hanover, Thistle, Hearts. But (Edinburgh) Rovers seems to have been an established club by 1875, and infact probably as much as Hanover, and there's the more misty possibilities of (Edinburgh) St Andrew - who become intertwined with Hearts - and (Edinburgh) Breadalbane.

It's regretable that we don't seem to know which clubs cofounded the EFA; from the implication of the 1890 article it was after 1875-76 had begun. According to "Hibernian The Complete Story" by John Mackay, the freshly-started Hibs:
applied to join the newly formed Edinburgh FA, but were told to join the SFA first.
so does that imply the initial EFA members were all SFA members? perhaps yes - but Hanover didn't enter the 1875-76 Scottish Cup. Mackay then continues
So they tried to join the SFA but the national association, according to Tirconnell's account of 1887, "thus early displaying a spirit which has all along marked their dealings with Hibernian, refused them admission". Fortunately, the EFA were more accomodating: they were trying to promote the game in the east, and recognised that Hibs "promised to be a useful acquisition for the district". Not only were Hibs admitted, but a petition was signed by all the capital's prominent players, so that when Hibs next tried to join the SFA in 1876, they were successful. They were unable to take part in the 1876-77 Scottish Cup, but made their debut in the Edinburgh Cup.
Do we have more precise dates for the various installments of this early membership saga?

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Re: Edinburgh Cup 1875-76

Post by BMCCOLL » Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:46 pm

ScottishFA wrote:I've done a trawl through the Scotsman football reports for that season, and there was a match on 11 December 1875 in which 3rd ERV beat Hanover 2-0 on the Meadows. It is described as "the second match in the first tie for the cup subscribed for by the clubs in the eastern district of Scotland".
The Victorian scribes as you know were very ambiguous with some of their writing, but this does look as if the game was the second match in the first round of ties; early rounds of the cup competitions were spread over various dates.

HibeeJibee wrote:It's conceivable there might've only been 4 entrants: 3rd ERV, Hanover, Thistle, Hearts. But (Edinburgh) Rovers seems to have been an established club by 1875, and infact probably as much as Hanover, and there's the more misty possibilities of (Edinburgh) St Andrew - who become intertwined with Hearts - and (Edinburgh) Breadalbane.

It's regretable that we don't seem to know which clubs cofounded the EFA; from the implication of the 1890 article it was after 1875-76 had begun. According to "Hibernian The Complete Story" by John Mackay, the freshly-started Hibs:
applied to join the newly formed Edinburgh FA, but were told to join the SFA first.
A strange turn of events considering the EFA were the only county/regional FA in existence at the time; and wasn't the SFA viewed as having a western bias, or did that opinion form much later?
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Re: Edinburgh Cup 1875-76

Post by HibeeJibee » Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:12 pm

They began as they would continue, getting each other's backs up, going by John Rafferty's SFA Centenary book of which the below is an extract from p17. It's got a slightly different take on Hibs rejected admission, too, and it says EFA was formed in September 1875.

[it begins with discussion of the Queen's Park-Clydesdale match of December 1873, the first ever association football game in Edinburgh]

According to the Scottish Athletic News of December 22, 1882, the game under Association rules had been taken-up in Edinburgh in 1874 by 2 clubs, the Thistle and the 3rd Edinburgh Rifle Volunteer Corps. For some years previously a 'thatcher' set of rules had been played in summer by three clubs, the Blue Bonnets, the Southern, and the Thistle. The Blue Bonnets disbanded in 1873 but Thistle adopted the new rules and were alone in this for a year until 3rd ERV Corps joined them [note the 1890 article has things the other way about in terms of who led and who followed]. The following year, 1875, Heart of Midlothian, who had played for a short time as White Star, the Hanover, and the Hibernians came into existence. Some of the original Hibs members played with White Star but joined the new club at its inception so it could be said that both Hearts and Hibs sprang from the same root.

Hibernian were started by Irishmen in Edinburgh and consequently controversy set in early. The Edinburgh Association was formed in September 1875 but when Hibs applied for admission they were refused. It was said that they played rough and affiliated clubs were asked not to play them. They applied for admission to the Scottish Football Association but their entry money was returned.

Hibs continued to play but by the following year they presented a petition, signed by all the prominent players in the Edinburgh District, supporting their application for admission to the SFA and they were admitted successfully. They were not allowed to play in the Scottish Cup competition that season.



[there is then a few paragraphs describing how the West initially regarded the Edinburgh football style as "poor, not to say almost savage in the roughness of the often unnecessary charging", the problems faced in getting pitches in Edinburgh, the struggle with Rugby, and the municipal authorities attempts to frustrate football]


[in or just after 1879] the Edinburgh Association had the confidence to ask for an inter-city game with Glasgow and stick up for their rights over terms. Mr John McDowall, the SFA secretary, answered Mr FG Watt's request for a match by offerring to organise one as a national team trial but, as Edinburgh was an association subordinate to the SFA, the main association should be responsible for the match and should keep the drawings.

Edinburgh's pride was hurt and they proudly answered that the Edinburgh Football Association was an independent association and in no way subordinate to the SFA, and rounded off the affair with the observation that Edinburgh was of the opinion that the SFA just wanted to collar the swag.

A lot of plain speaking showed that the SFA was equating itself with Glasgow. Administration was rationalised when the Glasgow Association was formed on March 21, 1884. The rivalry between the cities flourished, comically.

By the time that the Glasgow Cup competition was agreed to at the Annual Meeting on May 17, 1887
[replacing the FA Cup of course] Glasgow was modestly describing their success as phenomenal and humbly claiming that the past season had been quite in keeping with the tradition of so historical a football centre. The report of that year recorded egotistically: 'It is not egotistic to say that no minor association in Great Britain has so many first class clubs under one jurisdiction'.

That season they passed off a defeat by Edinburgh with, 'A fairly representative team opposed Edinburgh on Powderhall grounds and after a close and even game Glasgow had to put up with a second defeat by 3 goals to 2. It is an ill wind that blows nobody good and this result will doubtless enhance the interest next season of the return in Glasgow.

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Re: Edinburgh Cup 1875-76

Post by Henry Smith » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:58 pm

Hi, following on from the original query I have no record of Hearts taking part in the Edinburgh FA Cup in what was their first season. Which corresponds with my understanding of the Edinburgh FA Cup being for 'senior' clubs only; hence the introduction of the President's Cup for one season in 1878-79 which we won.

To confirm Hearts did play 3rd Edinburgh Rifle Volunteers in the Scottish Cup drawing 0-0 twice on the Meadows which of course saw both teams progress through according to the rules at the time.
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BMCCOLL
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Re: Edinburgh Cup 1875-76

Post by BMCCOLL » Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:39 pm

I would think that Hearts' inclusion in the 1875-76 Scottish Cup would be a recognition of their senior status, hence their involvement in the affairs of the Edinburgh FA. By the accounts so far gleaned, it would appear only four clubs took part, but with the dearth of info available from contemporary sources it looks like these early results will be lost forever.
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