Oldest Surviving Scottish Internationalists

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Oldest Surviving Scottish Internationalists

Postby Scottish » Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:29 pm

There was an article in the Kilmarnock v Motherwell match programme about the recent death of ex-Killie player George Robertson at the age of 90. It was suggested that he may also have been the last surviving pre-war Scottish international cap.

Forrest Robertson has compiled a list of players who may or may not still be alive which I reproduce below. The youngest of these would be 89 this year.

Anyone with any information please add or delete as appropriate.

Andy Anderson (Hearts) born 1909. There isn`t a DoD on the London Hearts website.
Matt Armstrong (Aberdeen) born 1911.
Andy Black (Hearts) born 1917.There isn`t a DoD on the London Hearts website.
Jimmy Carabine (3rd Lanark) born 1911. I`m fairly sure he`s dead.
Jimmy Dykes (Hearts) born 1916 There isn`t a DoD on the London Hearts website.
Archie Miller (Hearts) born 1913. He also played for Killie in the early 50s. There isn`t a DoD on the London Hearts website.
Willie Mills (Aberdeen) born 1915
James Paterson (Cowdenbeath) born circa 1907
Jimmy Smith (Rangers) born 1911. I`m sure Smith died a few years ago but I can`t be certain.
Hugh Wales (Motherwell) born 1910
George Walker (St.Mirren) born 1909
Phil Watson (Blackpool) born 1907.
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Postby soccerhistory » Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:57 pm

Jimmy Smith passed away 4 December 2003, so he can be removed from the list.
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Postby ScottishFA » Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:13 pm

Just heard today (10 August 06) from the family that Archie Miller died this week. Don't have exact date, but will post the info if I get it.
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Postby ScottishFA » Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:49 pm

The Herald had an obituary this week for David Kinnear, who could be the last surviving pre-war internationalist. Died on 3 February.

http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/obi ... innear.php
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Postby Scottish » Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:18 pm

Still no further information on the players outstanding above. David Kinnear wasn't on that list so I wonder if there are any more pre-war caps overlooked.

I see the Herald obit mentions the Old Firm match of January 1939 but gives a crowd of 118,730 as opposed to the more generally accepted 118,567. It's not the first time I've seen the higher figure mentioned but I have no idea as to its provenance.
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Postby bobby s » Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:00 pm

What date did John Bell Brown pass away?

Edit: 27th August 2005.
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Postby nightfire » Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:21 am

I'm sure Jimmy Carabine has passed away - I will check for a date
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Postby nightfire » Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:44 pm

nightfire wrote:I'm sure Jimmy Carabine has passed away - I will check for a date


Sadly, Jimmy was fatally injured by a car in Rutherglen many years ago.
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Re: Oldest Surviving Scottish Internationalists

Postby Karen Haseldine » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:05 pm

Hugh Wales died in Canada 12th April 1995 age 84, according to his wife's obituary. She died 12th Feb 2008 age 97, in her native Canada. He had a footballing brother and father both called Abraham. Does anyone know anything about them as they are distantly related to me?

Regards

Karen
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Re: Oldest Surviving Scottish Internationalists

Postby Scottish » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:58 pm

Karen Haseldine wrote:Hugh Wales died in Canada 12th April 1995 age 84, according to his wife's obituary. She died 12th Feb 2008 age 97, in her native Canada. He had a footballing brother and father both called Abraham. Does anyone know anything about them as they are distantly related to me?

Regards

Karen


Abraham Wales (brother) was born Kilwinning 4/10/1907 and died in the same place aged 69 on 24/7/1976 according to 'Killie Til' I Die.' He started out with Bartonholm United then Kilwinning Rangers before joining Kilmarnock in 1929 where he scored nine goals in fourteen league games which was a good return but Killie weren't short of goalscorers at this time so he had few first team chances. After a loan spell at Galston, he signed for Montrose in Jan 1931, Kilwinning Eglinton Dec 1931, Luton Town July 1932 (three games no goals), Leicester City (no appearances) and finally Queen of the South in July 1933 where he made four league appearances and scored once. He was a compositor to trade who joined Scottish Aviation in 1941.

Abraham (father) played for Motherwell, Third Lanark, Morton and Fulham between in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
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Re: Oldest Surviving Scottish Internationalists

Postby Karen Haseldine » Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:23 pm

That was quick! Thank you for all the information. I've only just started researching this part of my family tree, so that will really help me. I have found a newspaper cutting about Hugh Wales playing for a team called Winnipeg Scottish when he was 38.

I am also related to Bud Maxwell. So thank also for all the wonderful information you have posted about him too. Do you have anything more about his father, also James Morton Maxwell. I have been to the war cemetry in France and seen his name engraved on the memorial wall there.

Regards

Karen
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Re: Oldest Surviving Scottish Internationalists

Postby Scottish » Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:00 pm

Karen, there's some confusion surrounding James Maxwell Sr. You say you have seen his name on a war memorial in France and that was my understanding too. I wrote in my book 'Killie - the Official History' in 1994 that he had been killed on the Western Front. But the more recent 'Killie Til' I Die' has more specific details. I quote: "Tragically he was killed in action in Mesopotamia (modern Iraq) in April 1917 while serving as a Lance-Corporal in the 1st Battalion of the Seaforth Highlanders. He has no known grave but his name is listed on the Basra Memorial, which was moved in 1997 to the Nasiryah road (ironically the scene of a major battle during the Gulf War of 1991) and also on Kilmarnock's war memorial." This isan up to date book (published 2011), researched and written by Richard Cairns who has edited the matchday programme for twenty years and a fanzine before that, and Gordon Allison, a collector of Killie information for decades.

In terms of his life and career he was born in New Cumnock 10/1/1882 and died in 21/4/1917. He played for Kilmarnock Shawbank & Petershill before signing for Kilmarnock in December 1904. He represented the Scottish League (as did 'Bud') and later played for (Sheffield) The Wednesday, (Woolwich) Arsenal, Hurlford, Galston, Carlisle United before rejoining Kilmarnock in December 1912. Prior to the outbreak of the war he played for Nithsdale Wanderers. He scored 18 times (14 league, four Scottish Cup) in 65 appearances (55 lge, 10 SC) for Kilmarnock.

James Jr. ('Bud') was born Kilmarnock 15/1/1913, died Poole, Dorset 22/4/1990. He played 147 matches (126 lge, 21 SC), scoring 121 goals (103 lge, 18 SC) and is Kilmarnock's fifth top league scorer in their history and sixth overall, a remarkable placing considering he left the club three months after his 21st birthday. He played for the Scottish Schools Under-14's three times and was signed up by Killie before he was 17. He was the club's top scorer for four consecutive seasons. As well as playing for the Scottish League, he also played for Kilmarnock in the 1932 Scottish Cup Final and replay, scoring in the first game.

He moved to Preston North End, one of a clutch of former Kilmarmock players among a large Scottish contingent when they won the FA Cup in 1938.All told he scored 60 goals in 129 appearances for Preston. He signed briefly for Barnsley in July 1939 scoring four goals in three games before returning to Killie for the unofficial 1939-40 season. The club shut down for the duration in 1940 when the military requisitioned the ground and Maxwell spent five years in the Royal Navy.

He was 33 and troubled by knee injuries come the end of the war so 1946-47 with Shrewsbury Town, then a Midland League side, was his last.
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Re: Oldest Surviving Scottish Internationalists

Postby Karen Haseldine » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:50 pm

Hi

Thank you for all that information.

I don't think I will be going to Basra to visit his memorial. I had been given the information about his miltary service by one of Bud's relatives, but I suspect that he had got the information from the internet somewhere. He had met Bud and held his F.A. Cup medal but he was only a child at the time. Indeed on one site it says James Snr suvived the war. There are quite a few J and James Maxwells who lost their lives in WWI. I had looked through them all and was uncertain myself which one was him. However, now more information is avaialble on line and I can now see that the James Maxwell who died in Mesopotamia had been recruited into the Seaforth Highlanders from Kilmarnock.

I've enjoyed reading all the items you've posted about the records Bud still holds.

Thanks again.

Karen
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Re: Oldest Surviving Scottish Internationalists

Postby Scottish » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:21 pm

Karen Haseldine wrote: Indeed on one site it says James Snr suvived the war. There are quite a few J and James Maxwells who lost their lives in WWI.
Karen


As early as 1919 his death was recorded in a club history and the local press mentioned it in 1917 but yes, it was a common enough name for there to be plenty of confusion. I had the same difficulty myself when trying to trace a great-uncle killed in WW1. All I had to go on was his name on a village war memorial. His name was very common - indeed identical to that of a certain ex-football chairman given to boasting about spending tenners to other people's fivers - but I managed to find his rank, regiment, date of death and location of his cemetery in Germany, thanks to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website.
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Re: Oldest Surviving Scottish Internationalists

Postby Scottish » Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:04 pm

Karen has sent a photo of Abraham Wales Sr, back row fourth from right, and wonders if anyone knows the team. I'd hazard a guess at Motherwell.

Image
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