England v. Scotland Junior International c.1902

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Vasco
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England v. Scotland Junior International c.1902

Post by Vasco » Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:57 am

I'm looking for info on this match, as a work colleague's grandfather allegedly played in the game. Scotland line-up would probably be enough. Game was at Villa Park, I believe.

Unfortunately I've very little on Junior football myself.

HibeeJibee
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Re: England v. Scotland Junior International c.1902

Post by HibeeJibee » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:27 pm

In a formal sense, of course, this was really the "Birmingham Counties League" v SJFA?

SJFA Centenary History gives 1902 at Villa Park as a 2-2 draw (date given elsewhere as April 5th). In 1900 the game was at Small Heath and in 1904 at "Birmingham" which may mean Birmingham FC (later Birmingham City) although later in the listings St Andrews is named as such.

EDIT: April 5th 1902 was also 'proper' Scotland v England at Ibrox... the Ibrox Disaster.

Somewhat confusingly, the previous page - which lists certain notable achievements - says Williamson of Rutherglen Glencairn scored a hat-trick. Quite hard in a 2-2...


Nothing of note is given in the narrative, other than that 9 of the men who faced Ireland in March also faced England, which was felt to be quite unusual.

Players mentioned as facing Ireland are Hamilton (Cambuslang Hibs), Alex Bennett (also Glencairn), McIntosh (Alva Albion Rangers) and Horn (Yoker Athletic).

kjell
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Re: England v. Scotland Junior International c.1902

Post by kjell » Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:29 pm

Hello,

Found this article before the match in Evening Telegraph

THE JUNIORS.
INTERNATIONAL AT BIRMINGHAM.
Dundee folks are specially interested in the junior international at Birmingham, principally on account of the appearance of McNiff, the Violet player, in the Scotch team against England. Hopes are entertained that he will show that form which has been characteristic of his play this season. A win is expected.
The teams are: - Scotland – Rae (Dunipace); Colman (Maryhill) and Reid (Cronberry); Horn (Yoker Athletic), McIntosh (Alva), and Williamson (Glencairn); Lang (Co-op United), McNiff (Dundee Violet), Bennett (Glencairn), Bolton (Port Glasgow Juniors), and Hamilton (Cambuslang Hibs).
England – Smith (Camnock); Hadlington (Hednesford) and Miles (Villa); Wallett (Bournebrook), Gately (Hednesford), and Edgington (Hednesford); Joynton (West Bromwich Albion), Carver (Bloxwich), Watts (Aston Villa), Bond (Bilston), and Pedley (Wednesbury Old Athletic). Referee – Mr. Capes (Burton-on-Trent).
(Evening Telegraph, 04-04-1902)

Kjell

soccerhistory
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Re: England v. Scotland Junior International c.1902

Post by soccerhistory » Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:24 pm

I have the match details (not quite complete) as follows:

Saturday 5 April 1902
At Aston Lower Grounds, Birmingham, Att 1,200
England [Birmingham County FA] 3 (Edgington 30m, Watts 35m +1)
Scotland 3 (Bolton 44m, Williamson 2)
HT: 2-1
Birmingham: S Smith (Cannock), J Hadlington (Hednesford Town), A Miles (Aston Villa Reserves), A Wallett (Bournbrook), Gateley (Hednesford), Edgington (Hednesford), Pemberton (Witton Shell), Carver (Bloxwich), H Watts (Aston Villa Reserves), Bond (Bilston United), Pedley (Wednesbury Old Athletic)
Scotland: Rae (Dunipace), Coleman (Maryhill), Reid (Eglington Cronberry), Horn (Yoker Athletic), McIntosh (Alva Albion Rangers), Williamson (Glencairn), Lang (Co-operative United), McNiff (Dundee Violet), Bennett (Glencairn), Bolton (Port Glasgow Athletic), Hamilton (Cambuslang Hibernians)
Substitute: Paterson (???) for Rae 20 mins
Referee: Mr Capes (Burton-on-Trent)

The 'England' team for most of these games was the Birmingham County FA team, although in the first-ever game in May 1889 they were represented by the Lancashire Junior FA and during WW1 the Birmingham Youths and Old Boys FA. The 1900 venue was Muntz Street, Small Heath, Birmingham (Birmingham FC) and the 1904 venue Villa Park. Later games in the series were played at The Hawthorns (West Brom), Highfield Road (Coventry) and Molineux (Wolves).

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Re: England v. Scotland Junior International c.1902

Post by Scottish » Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:11 pm

HibeeJibee wrote: April 5th 1902 was also 'proper' Scotland v England at Ibrox... the Ibrox Disaster.
This was quite common. The Junior 'international' would be held in one country with the senior in the other on the same day. In 1920 for example the England-Scotland match was played at Sheffield, the junior game was at Ibrox.

It wasn't just the 'English' side which was restricted geographically. In the 1920 game as in others mentioned by soccerhistory, all the players came from the West Midlands. But the 'Scottish' side was drawn almost exclusively from the then Glasgow & Lanarkshire Junior Leagues, the precursors to the Central League. There were nine players from those leagues and one each from Renrewshire & Ayrshire. West of Scotland v West Midlands would have been a more appropriate billing.

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Re: England v. Scotland Junior International c.1902

Post by HibeeJibee » Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:06 pm

Further the SJFA Centenary History (this from 1986 of course) adds that the 'internationals' against Wales were really versus the North Welsh Coast FA, those v Eire mainly the Leinster League. Nowadays I think the Republic of Ireland's side may be more nationally representative, though.

Games against England in the 1970s-80s were v the Northern League.

Games against [Northern] Ireland have more claim to being against 'national' opposition, as they were mainly v the Irish League B Division or its predecessors/successors.

Seemingly 3 matches versus the British Army Of the Rhine in 1975 are also counted as internationals proper.


Oddly enough, the Scottish Amateur FA's 'internationals' of recent decades have been v the North Wales Coast FA and Leinster Senior League. Plus the Northern Irish AFL.

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