Junior Internationals - Scotland v England

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Junior Internationals - Scotland v England

Postby bluedragon » Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:56 am

I wonder if anyone is collating/has collated the details, e.g. line ups, scorers, scores, etc. of the series of Junior Internationals played against the Birmingham and District FA from 1894 to 1939? The Centenary book on the Juniors has the record of venues and scores and some details of individual games. There are also some threads here with useful information.

I have been looking at these games in a piecemeal fashion picking up information as I find it. I would be interested to know if anyone is looking in a slightly more organised fashion than myself!
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Re: Junior Internationals - Scotland v England

Postby HibeeJibee » Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:25 am

I've always thought a listing of Junior international details would be among the most welcome "additions" to the historical record... Amateur details can be pieced together from Andy Mitchell's programme guide and George Campbell's pamphlet, but there's nothing on Junior internationals bar SJFA centenary history's scores list.
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Re: Junior Internationals - Scotland v England

Postby honestman » Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:29 pm

I have been working away at this for a number of years with the occasional dip into the newspapers for more information but still well away from completing all the information. I may well send what I have got to Brian McColl and hopefully others can update this to get a more complete picture of Junior Internationals.
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Re: Junior Internationals - Scotland v England

Postby bluedragon » Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:21 pm

honestman wrote:I have been working away at this for a number of years with the occasional dip into the newspapers for more information but still well away from completing all the information. I may well send what I have got to Brian McColl and hopefully others can update this to get a more complete picture of Junior Internationals.

Thanks. I have been dabbling away since the 1905 match caught my interest. I am mostly looking at the early games. Am I duplicating matches you have covered?
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Re: Junior Internationals - Scotland v England

Postby BMCCOLL » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:09 pm

honestman wrote:I have been working away at this for a number of years with the occasional dip into the newspapers for more information but still well away from completing all the information. I may well send what I have got to Brian McColl and hopefully others can update this to get a more complete picture of Junior Internationals.


Stewart Davidson has also offered me a look at his research on the matter. Placing such material onto the site is absolutely no problem, and hopefully will lead to a more complete picture of junior internationals.
http://scottish-football-historical-archive.co.nf
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Re: Junior Internationals - Scotland v England

Postby BMCCOLL » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:49 pm

I've gotten hold of Stewart's and Tom McGouran's handwritten notes and am currently adopting them into an excel spreadsheet. Most of the matches up to the 1980s are covered, with goalscorers, line-ups venues and many attendances referees. The file will be available to view within the next week or so from the site, hopefully others will be able to add more details in the coming months.
http://scottish-football-historical-archive.co.nf
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Re: Junior Internationals - Scotland v England

Postby bluedragon » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:10 pm

BMCCOLL wrote:I've gotten hold of Stewart's and Tom McGouran's handwritten notes and am currently adopting them into an excel spreadsheet. Most of the matches up to the 1980s are covered, with goalscorers, line-ups venues and many attendances referees. The file will be available to view within the next week or so from the site, hopefully others will be able to add more details in the coming months.

Thank you. That is much appreciated and wil be very helpful in my own research. I hope I may be able to add a little more information later.
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Re: Junior Internationals - Scotland v England

Postby BMCCOLL » Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:05 pm

The file, which I'll be working on over the next week or so, can be downloaded HERE via the SFHA. It covers 1889-1925, but most matches up to WWII will be featured. Any help for post war matches, or in filling in the gaps already listed will be most welcome.

Thanks
Brian
http://scottish-football-historical-archive.co.nf
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Re: Junior Internationals - Scotland v England

Postby bluedragon » Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:36 pm

Many thanks for organising this Brian and also to Stewart and Tom for making the information available.

I have been looking at matches with the Birmingham & District FA in particular so may, in time, be able to fill in some gaps - although there doesn't appear to be many! I learnt this week that the Birmingham & District FA also played games against Ireland. Birmingham apparently started by selecting players from non-Football League clubs but after a number of reverses against Scotland widened selection to Football League clubs so long as the player had not played in the first team or the Cup.

I also noticed in the early days the Scotland v England game seemed to be played as reverse fixture with the Senior International.
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Re: Junior Internationals - Scotland v England

Postby bluedragon » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:40 am

BMCCOLL wrote:The file, which I'll be working on over the next week or so, can be downloaded HERE via the SFHA. It covers 1889-1925, but most matches up to WWII will be featured. Any help for post war matches, or in filling in the gaps already listed will be most welcome.

Thanks
Brian


Brian - a few things from the 1905 Scotland v England game that I have been looking at:

Referee RT Murray (Stenhousemuir)

I am pretty confident that it is McFie of Maryhill. Although I have seen both spellings McFie looks favourite to me.

It is "Findlay (Levern Victoria)". This chap signed for Newcastle United after that Junior International. He returned to Scotland to play for Vale of Leven. I believe it is the same Findlay that got hauled before the beaks because he had played for the Scottish Wholesale Society in the final of the Glasgow Warehousemen's Cup in 1908 while a professional with Vale of Leven. Vale of Leven had beaten Brechin City in the Qualifying Cup Final but protested when they heard about Findlay's appearance in works football. The Qualifying Cup Final was replayed and Findlay got a suspension.
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Re: Junior Internationals - Scotland v England

Postby Scottish » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:45 am

bluedragon wrote: I believe it is the same Findlay that got hauled before the beaks because he had played for the Scottish Wholesale Society in the final of the Glasgow Warehousemen's Cup in 1908 while a professional with Vale of Leven.


Ah, but was he a wholesaler?
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Re: Junior Internationals - Scotland v England

Postby bluedragon » Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:49 am

I can confirm, following help from two different sources, that the match versus England on 4th April 1908 with the venue listed as "Birmingham" was played at the Hawthorns, West Bromwich.

Thanks for adding the next tranche of games.
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Re: Junior Internationals - Scotland v England

Postby bluedragon » Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:18 am

Here are some details to fill in the gap for the 1935 match versus Ireland.

Brown (Shawfield)
Naylor (Rob Roy)
Weir (Kilsyth Rangers)
D Weir (Yoker)
W Clark (Larkhall Thistle)
Logan (Petershill)
Ross (Kilsyth Rangers)
Connor (Petershill)
McCaffrey (St Rochs)
Farmer (Benburb)
Adamson (Lochee Harp)

Referee – W Webb (Glasgow)

Attendance – 17,710

Receipts - £376

Source Sunday Post 17 March 1935 (that includes a photograph of the team)

No mention of the captain but W Clark is sitting in the skipper's seat in the team photograph.
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Re: Junior Internationals - Scotland v England

Postby BMCCOLL » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:22 pm

Thanks, Gordon.

Tom McGouran has also added some more stats to the spreadsheet, which I'll update along with your finds. We're now making some inroads into the immediate post WWII period.
http://scottish-football-historical-archive.co.nf
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Re: Junior Internationals - Scotland v England

Postby bluedragon » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:43 pm

Here is another "gap"

V England 7th April 1934 Dens Park, Dundee

McKay (Ashfield)
Telfer (Tranent)
Don (Dunipace)
Clancy (Yoker Athletic)
Bingham (Irvine Meadow XI)
Young (East Craigie)
Brownlie (Benburb)
Ross (Aberdeen East End)
Devers (Benburb)
Conwell (Arthurlie)
Boag (Lochee Harp)

Referee W Webb (Glasgow)

Attendance 11,000

Receipts £434

Source: The Courier and Advertiser 9th April 1934
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