Half time subs 45th or 46th minute?

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bobby s
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Half time subs 45th or 46th minute?

Post by bobby s » Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:45 am

If a player comes on at half time does he come on in the 45th or 46th minute?

My understanding of the 45th minute is that it runs from 44:00 to 45:00 and the 46th runs from 45:00 to 46:00, so my brain thinks that a half time sub is slap bang in-between the two.

What do the distinguished panel record?

Goals and Bookings are more straightforward recorded as 45+1 45+2 or 46 for the second half.
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Re: Half time subs 45th or 46th minute?

Post by Scottish » Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:04 pm

What about HT?

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Re: Half time subs 45th or 46th minute?

Post by bobby s » Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:07 pm

scottish wrote:What about HT?
That might be the most practical solution...
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Re: Half time subs 45th or 46th minute?

Post by ScottishFA » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:47 pm

Yes, I usually use HT, which removes any ambiguity. But if it was a 'numbers only' format it would have to be 46.

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Re: Half time subs 45th or 46th minute?

Post by Partick Thistle » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:00 pm

45 or 46 is unacceptable. Why make all the effort to compile all the data, only to be left unable to perfectly interpret it later?

I quickly regretted using the 46 mins term as soon as I discovered a genuine 46 mins sub.

Ever since I've been steadily overhauling my data and replacing all 46 mins with HT, leaving only the genuine 46 mins in place.

If you're really stuck with a numbers database maybe you could use the term "45.5" with a footnote explanation elsewhere on the page?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing as they say...
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Re: Half time subs 45th or 46th minute?

Post by the hibLOG » Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:40 pm

I'd agree that HT is a safer way of recording dressing room substitutions. I suppose however the big problem facing you historians is being unable to tell from the times recorded by other sources who have stuck to numerical only timings.

Also, from Bobby's original question, how do you distinguish cautions or dismissals that took place after the end of play at HT or FT?
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Re: Half time subs 45th or 46th minute?

Post by Sat31March1928 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:17 am

Here is my answer based on my experience
1 - As a football researcher
2 - As a 'data designer' -

Only wish I'd applied some of 2 before gathering data for 1!

The basic question is how do we identify the time of an 'event'
An Event could be
-Booking
-Sending Off
-Goal
-Player going off for treatment
-Player coming back on after treatment
-Substitution
-Penalty being awarded
-Penalty Miss
etc

The introduction of 'additional time' makes 46th minute ambiguous

Simple solution is to capture the 'period' an event takes place in

e.g. The Period being

1H - 1st Half
HT - Half Time Has a player been booked or sent off during this period?
2H - 2nd Half
FT - Full Time Has a player been booked or sent off during this period?
1E - 1st period of extra time
HX - Half Time in extra time
2E - 2nd period of extra time
PS - Penalty shoot out time
PM - Post match. Would allow recording of 'retrospective' events e.g. red cards

Then you record the 'time' the event took place

Ideally time would be MM:SS minutes and seconds

Historically the level of precision would be minutes

Thus a substitution taking place in the 46th minute could either be

1H 46 - 1 minute in added time in first half

2H 46 - At start of second half

Brings us to another point is do you 'restart' the clock?

Ideally you would say yes. However convention would say no and you start at 46, 91, 116 , 121

However historically the information around exactly when an event occurred is 'patchy'.

This is of particular interest around the 'order' goals are scored in.
Therefore I record the 'scoreorder' against each goal scorer

So for league results Hearts had in the 1894 part of 1894-95

Date, score order, player,goal times where known bold, goal scored for, score at time of goal,opponent

Aug 18 1894 1 Michael Willie 5 Heart of Midlothian 1-0 Third Lanark
Aug 18 1894 2 Lawrence (S Lawrence T) Bell Third Lanark 1-1 Third Lanark
Aug 18 1894 3 McLaren Robert Heart of Midlothian 2-1 Third Lanark
Aug 18 1894 4 Scott George Heart of Midlothian 3-1 Third Lanark
Aug 18 1894 5 James [3] McCartney Third Lanark 3-2 Third Lanark
Aug 18 1894 6 Lawrence (S Lawrence T) Bell Third Lanark 3-3 Third Lanark
Aug 18 1894 7 Taylor Willie Heart of Midlothian 4-3 Third Lanark
Aug 18 1894 8 Scott George Heart of Midlothian 5-3 Third Lanark
Aug 18 1894 9 Phillips William Heart of Midlothian 6-3 Third Lanark

Sep 1 1894 1 Scott George 40 Heart of Midlothian 1-0 St Mirren

Sep 8 1894 1 Scott George 42 Heart of Midlothian 1-0 Third Lanark
Sep 8 1894 2 Walker Johnny Heart of Midlothian 2-0 Third Lanark
Sep 8 1894 3 Walker Johnny 85 Heart of Midlothian 3-0 Third Lanark

Sep 15 1894 1 Michael Willie Heart of Midlothian 1-0 Leith Athletic
Sep 15 1894 2 McLaren Robert Heart of Midlothian 2-0 Leith Athletic
Sep 15 1894 3 McLaren Robert Heart of Midlothian 3-0 Leith Athletic
Sep 15 1894 4 Scrimmage 89 Leith Athletic 3-1 Leith Athletic

Sep 29 1894 1 William [1] Campbell Dumbarton 0-1 Dumbarton
Sep 29 1894 2 McLaren Robert Heart of Midlothian 1-1 Dumbarton
Sep 29 1894 3 Chambers Tom Heart of Midlothian 2-1 Dumbarton
Sep 29 1894 4 Michael Willie Heart of Midlothian 3-1 Dumbarton
Sep 29 1894 5 Nash Heart of Midlothian 4-1 Dumbarton

Oct 6 1894 1 Learmouth St Bernards 0-1 St Bernards
Oct 6 1894 2 John (Jack) Wilson St Bernards 0-2 St Bernards
Oct 6 1894 3 McLaren Robert Heart of Midlothian 1-2 St Bernards
Oct 6 1894 4 Maxwell Willie Heart of Midlothian 2-2 St Bernards
Oct 6 1894 5 Walker Johnny Heart of Midlothian 3-2 St Bernards
Oct 6 1894 6 McLaren Robert Heart of Midlothian 4-2 St Bernards
Oct 6 1894 7 James Oswald St Bernards 4-3 St Bernards

Oct 13 1894 1 Michael Willie Heart of Midlothian 1-0 St Mirren
Oct 13 1894 2 John Daniel Taylor St Mirren 1-1 St Mirren
Oct 13 1894 3 Walker Johnny Heart of Midlothian 2-1 St Mirren

Oct 20 1894 1 Russell David 75 Heart of Midlothian 1-0 Rangers

Oct 27 1894 1 Chambers Tom Heart of Midlothian 1-0 Dumbarton
Oct 27 1894 2 Baird Davie Heart of Midlothian 2-0 Dumbarton
Oct 27 1894 3 Chambers Tom Heart of Midlothian 3-0 Dumbarton
Oct 27 1894 4 William Boyle Dumbarton 3-1 Dumbarton

Nov 3 1894 1 Scott George Heart of Midlothian 1-0 Celtic
Nov 3 1894 2 Michael Willie 85 Heart of Midlothian 2-0 Celtic

Nov 17 1894 1 Chambers Tom Heart of Midlothian 1-0 Leith Athletic
Nov 17 1894 2 Walker Johnny Heart of Midlothian 2-0 Leith Athletic
Nov 17 1894 3 Walker Johnny Heart of Midlothian 3-0 Leith Athletic
Nov 17 1894 4 McLaren Robert Heart of Midlothian 4-0 Leith Athletic
Nov 17 1894 5 William Walker Leith Athletic 4-1 Leith Athletic

Dec 1 1894 1 Russell David Heart of Midlothian 1-0 Clyde
Dec 1 1894 2 Chambers Tom Heart of Midlothian 2-0 Clyde
Dec 1 1894 3 John [4] Miller Clyde 2-1 Clyde
Dec 1 1894 4 James Leslie Clyde 2-2 Clyde
Dec 1 1894 5 James Leslie Clyde 2-3 Clyde
Dec 1 1894 6 James Leslie Clyde 2-4 Clyde

Dec 22 1894 1 Russell David Heart of Midlothian 1-0 Dundee
Dec 22 1894 2 Michael Willie Heart of Midlothian 2-0 Dundee

Using the 'score order' you can calculate what the score was at the time of the goal as I've done above.
Also means you can work out who scored any milestone goals e.g. The 1000th for a club.
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Re: Half time subs 45th or 46th minute?

Post by Snuff » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:27 am

Some of the ambiguity as regards times of individual events at any given game is down to the "house style" of newspapers, or press agencies. I should say here, with so-much of today's reporting done by Press Association reporters, there are not, perhaps the diferences we say when there was more variety in choice of match reporters. Today, the PA man at the game is often covering for a lot of different papers, while not so long ago, more "stringers" were in the press box.

Some newspapers go with the number of actual minutes which have elapsed - if a goal is scored at say 32 minutes 25 seconds, it goes down as: Boyd (32) for instance. Another paper might want the minute in which it was scored, in which case it would read: Boyd (33).

The same timings will ensue with substitutions: Smith for Jones (35) in one paper; Smith for Jones (36) in another.

Personally, I prefer to go with the actual minute, ie: a goal scored, a booking or a substitution at say 55 minutes 40 seconds - 56 minutes.

I haven't worked for PA for a number of years now, but can recall, at the start of each season, receiving a fairly thick list of instructions as to how they wanted such things reported.
Snuff

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Re: Half time subs 45th or 46th minute?

Post by Scottish » Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:23 am

Snuff wrote:Today, the PA man at the game is often covering for a lot of different papers, while not so long ago, more "stringers" were in the press box.
As many of us are only all too aware.

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Re: Half time subs 45th or 46th minute?

Post by Partick Thistle » Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:47 pm

Sat31March1928 wrote: 1H - 1st Half
HT - Half Time Has a player been booked or sent off during this period?
2H - 2nd Half
FT - Full Time Has a player been booked or sent off during this period?
1E - 1st period of extra time
HX - Half Time in extra time
2E - 2nd period of extra time
PS - Penalty shoot out time
PM - Post match. Would allow recording of 'retrospective' events e.g. red cards
Aye, but what if some raj goes mental and gets a red in the pre match warm up? (Joking!)

Your system is technically flawless, no doubt. Only thing I'd say against it is that it can be a bit disorientating for your casual visitors who may struggle to mentally compute all of those variations at a glance.

It's only my opinion but I'd say "natural" is best, using 45+1, 90+2 etc to indicate time added on.
William

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Re: Half time subs 45th or 46th minute?

Post by Rob R » Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:51 pm

Excuse my ignorance please, whats a stringer ?

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Re: Half time subs 45th or 46th minute?

Post by the hibLOG » Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:17 pm

Rob R wrote:Excuse my ignorance please, whats a stringer ?
A freelance journalist engaged by a media outlet on an ad hoc basis. Different from a news agency employee providing syndicated reports (e.g. Press Association). A news agency could also for example engage stringers.
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Re: Half time subs 45th or 46th minute?

Post by Sat31March1928 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:26 pm

Partick Thistle wrote:
Sat31March1928 wrote: 1H - 1st Half
HT - Half Time Has a player been booked or sent off during this period?
2H - 2nd Half
FT - Full Time Has a player been booked or sent off during this period?
1E - 1st period of extra time
HX - Half Time in extra time
2E - 2nd period of extra time
PS - Penalty shoot out time
PM - Post match. Would allow recording of 'retrospective' events e.g. red cards
Aye, but what if some raj goes mental and gets a red in the pre match warm up? (Joking!)

Your system is technically flawless, no doubt. Only thing I'd say against it is that it can be a bit disorientating for your casual visitors who may struggle to mentally compute all of those variations at a glance.

It's only my opinion but I'd say "natural" is best, using 45+1, 90+2 etc to indicate time added on.
That is a matter of the 'presentation' of the data.

Record the data in the form that makes it 'unambiguous' then present it in a way that makes it clear what it means.
Jackson; James; Jackson; James; Jackson

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Re: Half time subs 45th or 46th minute?

Post by Skyline Drifter » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:20 pm

In theory there's no difference between a HT sub and any other that happens exactly on the cusp of a change of minute. A HT sub isn't on the field at 45:00 and is immediately afterward. How do you record it when someone comes on at 63:00? Is that the 63rd or 64th minute? The principle for Half Time is no different.

I don't think I actually record the timing of subs on anything I do but my inclination would be that if you aren't on when the designated minute is complete then you fall into the next one. I'd list a HT sub as 46 (if required to give a numerical answer, clearly listing it as HT is better) and I'd certainly list the one in my example above as 64th minute. Only an opinion though.

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Re: Half time subs 45th or 46th minute?

Post by Gabe » Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:55 pm

Hi William,
I agree with your way. I like it so much and I would like to update my / RSSSF archives by it. The problem now is: after many years how can I do to know which were the substitutions on the HT (or ht, or h-t , ...) ?
I think of replacing all 46 minutes with ht in the line-ups of Scotland and of their opponents, but from 1946 to now it is very hard to know the real ht subs....... I should revolutionize the entire work of Alan until 2001 and then mine. Not a problem, but I think the old sources are now not available ... I repeat your system is the best for me and I would like to use it, but how can I do to know which were the genuine 46 mins subs, without making mistakes?

Thanks

Gabe

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