Double internationalists

Scottish Football Answers to Questions

Double internationalists

Postby bluedragon » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:11 am

Following the work led by Brian McColl on Scottish amateur and junior internationals, I am now trying to list double internationalists (combination of amateur, junior or full caps). A triple internationalist would be great but we have not found one yet.

I have already received great help from the Pie & Bovril forum on the Juniors and I would like to know if anyone here can help.

The main sources I have used are: 1) the listing of Junior internationals (Scottish Football Historical Archive), 2) amateur internationals from the listings in the recently revised version of George Campbell’s original work in 1989 (“Forgotten Glories”) and 3) Douglas Lamming’s book of full internationalists.

The only existing listing of double internationalists I have come across are in George Campbell’s book and the SJFA Centenary book.

I am really just looking for:

1) other possible players that anyone may have come across in their own research that may fit it into one of the categories and I can check out the details.
2) The existence of any other listings, etc than anyone is aware of and to which I may be able to get access.

However, please feel free to question any of the details of the players I have already identified.

My view is that the list of Junior/Full internationalists is probably the one that is significantly incomplete.

The current lists that are:

The players who have won amateur and Junior caps while at the same Junior club

Gordon Armstrong (Troon Juniors) - 1 Amateur cap & 1 Junior cap
Angus "Gus" McMillan (Ashfield) - 1 & 2
William "Billy" Paton (Glenafton Athletic) - 1 & 1
John "Ian" Prentice (Irvine Meadow XI) - 4 & 1
William Stirling McDerment (Johnstone Burgh) - 1 & 1
James I Stewart (Greenock Juniors) - 2 & 1

The players who just won Amateur caps while at a Junior club.

Thomas Barr (Lanark United) - 1 Amateur cap
Lindsay Finlayson (Tranent Juniors) - 1
Alan S Johnstone (Irvine Meadow XI) - 1
Victor Matassa (Benburb) - 2
Alan McFarlane (Duntocher Hibs) - 4
Thomas McGowan (Duntocher Hibs) - 1
Robert "Bobby" Murray (Irvine Meadow XI) - 1
Edward "Eddie" O'Neil (Thorniewood United) - 3 + 1 as sub.
William Ritchie (Cumnock Juniors) -1

Note: For clarification the list is of players who were capped at Amateur International level for Scotland while signed for a Junior club. So the list only shows Tommy Barr’s one amateur cap won at Lanark United and not the 21 caps won as a Queen’s Park player. Similarly Bobby Murray (Irvine Meadow XI) was capped three times when playing for the Metropolitan Police.

The players who won amateur and full caps

Bobby Clark (Queen's Park) 8 amateur caps & 17 full caps
Peter Cormack (Hibernian) 5 & 9
Jim Cruikshank (Queen's Park) 2 & 6
Donald Ford (Heart of Midlothian) 9 & 3
Jack Harkness (Queen's Park) 2 & 11
David Holt (Queen's Park) 4 & 5
John Little (Queen's Park) 3 & 1
Peter Lorimer (Leeds United) 7 & 21
Bert McCann (Dundee United/Queen's Park) 6 & 5
Tommy McLean (Kilmarnock) 4 & 6
Ronnie Simpson (Queen's Park) 3 & 5

Notes: the club affiliation is where they won their amateur cap(s). Alex Ferguson (Queen's Park) won one Amateur cap but his appearances for the full Scotland team were in the 1967 World tour where the games were classed as unofficial.

The players who won junior and full caps

Pat Crerand (Duntocher Hibs) 3 Junior caps & 16 Full caps
Andy Cunningham (Newmilns) 1 & 2
Kenny Dalglish (Cumbernauld United) 1 & 102
Dixie Deans (Neilston Juniors) 1 & 2
Bobby Dougan (Shawfield) 3 & 1
Dougie Gray (Mugiemoss) 2 & 10
Bobby Hogg (Royal Albert) 3 & 1
Jimmy Johnstone (Blantyre Celtic) 1 & 23
Alec Scott (Bo'ness United) 3 & 16
Dave Mackay (Newtongrange Star) 1 & 22
Peter Nellies (Douglas Water Thistle) 1 & 2
Willie Pettigrew (East Kilbride Thistle) 2 & 5
Bobby Walker (Dalry Primrose) 1 & 29
Benny Yorston (Mugiemoss) 1 & 1

Notes: The Junior details include games played by the SJFA XI against other sides apart from England, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.
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Re: Double internationalists

Postby sureitsza » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:36 am

The players who won junior and full caps

James Lawrence (Glasgow Perthshire) 1 & 1
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Re: Double internationalists

Postby bluedragon » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:52 am

sureitsza wrote:The players who won junior and full caps

James Lawrence (Glasgow Perthshire) 1 & 1


Thanks. I have now added him to the list. Many thanks for your earlier help that led me to finding the forenames of two of the Junior amateur internationalists.
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Re: Double internationalists

Postby sureitsza » Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:23 pm

The players who won junior and full caps

Alex Bennett (Rutherglen Glencairn) 3 (+1 to be confirmed) & 11
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Re: Double internationalists

Postby ScottishFA » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:33 pm

A few other junior and full caps:

Matt Armstrong (Port Glasgow and Aberdeen)
John Brown (Shawfield and Clyde)
Jimmy Brownlie (Blantyre Vics and Third Lanark)
Donald Colman (Maryhill and Aberdeen)
Jimmy Gordon (Renfew Victoria and Rangers)
Tommy Low (Parkhead and Rangers)
James Raeside (Parkhead and Third Lanark)
Harry Rennie (Greenock West End and Hibernian)
Scot Symon (Dundee Violet and Rangers)

Amateur and Full:
William King (Queen's Park)
William Wiseman (Queen's Park)

I'm sure there will be plenty others.
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Re: Double internationalists

Postby bluedragon » Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:45 am

Thank you both for your quick replies. I have added the current list of players capped at Junior and Full level at the end of this post and added the Senior clubs where the players won their full caps.

I am kicking myself for not spotting Jock Brown as I knew he was a double internationalist!

Some comments on specific players

Alex Bennett – the Junior records I have list him playing against Ireland and England in 1902 & 1903, i.e. 4 games.

Matt Armstrong, Donald Colman, Tommy Low – a first look of the Junior records do not have these players listed. However, we know these records are not necessarily complete and so these players may have been late call ups for injuries, not spelt correctly in the newspapers, etc, etc. However, we should be able to get the details from these clues.

Harry Rennie – the Junior records have him capped out of Greenock Volunteers rather than Greenock West End and so I will check that out. I think he won his first Senior caps as a Hearts player and so I have put him being capped at Hearts and Hibs.

The players who won Junior and Full caps

Matt Armstrong (Port Glasgow and Aberdeen) ? Junior caps & 3 Full caps
Alex Bennett (Rutherglen Glencairn and Celtic/Rangers) 3 (+1 to be confirmed) & 11
John Brown (Shawfield and Clyde) 2 & 1
Jimmy Brownlie (Blantyre Victoria and Third Lanark) 1 & 16
Donald Colman (Maryhill and Aberdeen) ? & 4
Pat Crerand (Duntocher Hibs and Celtic/Manchester United) 3 & 16
Andy Cunningham (Newmilns and Rangers ) 1 & 12
Kenny Dalglish (Cumbernauld United & Celtic/Liverpool) 1 & 102
Dixie Deans (Neilston Juniors and Celtic) 1 & 2
Bobby Dougan (Shawfield and Heart of Midlothian) 3 & 1
Jimmy Gordon (Renfrew Victoria and Rangers) 2 & 10
Dougie Gray (Mugiemoss and Rangers) 2 & 10
Bobby Hogg (Royal Albert and Celtic) 3 & 1
Jimmy Johnstone (Blantyre Celtic and Celtic) 1 & 23
James Lawrence (Glasgow Perthshire and Newcastle United) 1 & 1
Tommy Low (Parkhead and Rangers) ? & 1
Alec Scott (Bo'ness United and Rangers/Everton) 3 & 16
Dave Mackay (Newtongrange Star and Heart of Midlothian/Tottenham Hotspur) 1 & 22
Peter Nellies (Douglas Water Thistle and Heart of Midlothian) 1 & 2
Willie Pettigrew (East Kilbride Thistle and Motherwell) 2 & 5
James Raeside (Parkhead and Third Lanark) 1 & 1
Harry Rennie (Greenock Volunteers and Heart of Midlothian/Hibernian) 1 & 13
Scot Symon (Dundee Violet and Rangers) 1 & 1
Bobby Walker (Dalry Primrose and Heart of Midlothian) 1 & 29
Benny Yorston (Mugiemoss and Aberdeen) 1 & 1
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Re: Double internationalists

Postby ScottishFA » Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:19 am

Matt Armstrong played v Ireland in 1931. He was travelling reserve and stepped in for Renfrew (Dunblane Rovers) who was injured.

I've got Colman of Maryhill playing v England in April 1902 (and for Glasgow Junior League a couple of weeks later). Most newspapers spell it Coleman.

Low (Parkhead) partnered Bobby Walker of Dalry Primrose on the right wing v England in April 1896. He also played a few times for Glasgow Junior FA.

Agree on Harry Rennie's junior club. Unusually, he played as a junior international at half-back, and in March 1897 was a reserve for the full international team there after his move to Morton. He didn't go into goal until 1897.
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Re: Double internationalists

Postby bluedragon » Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:57 am

Thanks Andy. Much appreciated. I probably would never have found Armstrong's late call-up. As you suggested I found Donald Colman spelt "Coleman" and I had just missed spotting Tommy Low. Sureitza has been in touch to say the note against Alex Bennett is because he has only seen the team selected for the 1902 game against England. That is the same record I have seen. Donald Colman was selected for the same game and so for consistency I have added the same note to his record in the following revised list.

Matt Armstrong (Port Glasgow and Aberdeen) 1 Junior cap & 3 Full caps
Alex Bennett (Rutherglen Glencairn and Celtic/Rangers) 3 (+1 to be confirmed) & 11
John Brown (Shawfield and Clyde) 2 & 1
Jimmy Brownlie (Blantyre Victoria and Third Lanark) 1 & 16
Donald Colman (Maryhill and Aberdeen) 2 (+1 to be confirmed) & 4
Pat Crerand (Duntocher Hibs and Celtic/Manchester United) 3 & 16
Andy Cunningham (Newmilns and Rangers ) 1 & 12
Kenny Dalglish (Cumbernauld United & Celtic/Liverpool) 1 & 102
Dixie Deans (Neilston Juniors and Celtic) 1 & 2
Bobby Dougan (Shawfield and Heart of Midlothian) 3 & 1
Jimmy Gordon (Renfrew Victoria and Rangers) 2 & 10
Dougie Gray (Mugiemoss and Rangers) 2 & 10
Bobby Hogg (Royal Albert and Celtic) 3 & 1
Jimmy Johnstone (Blantyre Celtic and Celtic) 1 & 23
James Lawrence (Glasgow Perthshire and Newcastle United) 1 & 1
Tommy Low (Parkhead and Rangers) 1 & 1
Alec Scott (Bo'ness United and Rangers/Everton) 3 & 16
Dave Mackay (Newtongrange Star and Heart of Midlothian/Tottenham Hotspur) 1 & 22
Peter Nellies (Douglas Water Thistle and Heart of Midlothian) 1 & 2
Willie Pettigrew (East Kilbride Thistle and Motherwell) 2 & 5
James Raeside (Parkhead and Third Lanark) 1 & 1
Harry Rennie (Greenock Volunteers and Heart of Midlothian/Hibernian) 1 & 13
Scot Symon (Dundee Violet and Rangers) 1 & 1
Bobby Walker (Dalry Primrose and Heart of Midlothian) 1 & 29
Benny Yorston (Mugiemoss and Aberdeen) 1 & 1
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Re: Double internationalists

Postby bluedragon » Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:31 pm

I wonder if anyone can help with a specific query? In the list of Junior/Senior internationals I had included Alex Scott (Bo'ness United and Rangers/Everton) 3 & 16. Someone has queried this and so I took a closer look and that is not correct.

We have three entries for Scott (Bo’ness United) playing Junior Internationals in 1953, 1955 and 1959 and all playing on the right wing.

The 1953 game might be Alex who signed by Rangers in July 1953 and so may have been farmed back out to Bo’ness and so still able to play for Junior Scotland 5 months later in December 1953.

The 1959 game must be Jim who joined Hibernian in October 1958 and may have been farmed back out to Bo’ness and able to play for Junior Scotland 3 months later in January 1959.

Who was the Scott who played in 1955? It cannot be Alex who was an established Senior at that time and surely cannot be Jim who was only 14 years of age.
I am off to look at it but if anyone can shed any light on it then it would be appreciated.
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Re: Double internationalists

Postby ScottishFA » Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:47 am

It was Alex Scott in 1953 and 1955.

He was still with Bo'ness Utd, having been 'farmed out' by Rangers, when Scotland played Ireland on 12 Feb 1955, and was called up to Rangers on 8 March. He was 18 at the time, went straight into the first team and scored a hat trick against Falkirk on his debut on 9 March 1955.
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Re: Double internationalists

Postby sureitsza » Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:21 am

Paul Wilson (Blantyre Celtic and Celtic) 1 & 1
He won his senior cap first then his junior cap.
This could be a rare occurrence in that order?
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Re: Double internationalists

Postby bluedragon » Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:27 pm

Thanks to you both for the latest corrections/additions.

Here is the up-to-date list:

Matt Armstrong (Port Glasgow and Aberdeen) 1 Junior cap & 3 Full caps
Alex Bennett (Rutherglen Glencairn and Celtic/Rangers) 3 (+1 to be confirmed) & 11
John Brown (Shawfield and Clyde) 2 & 1
Jimmy Brownlie (Blantyre Victoria and Third Lanark) 1 & 16
Donald Colman (Maryhill and Aberdeen) 2 (+1 to be confirmed) & 4
Pat Crerand (Duntocher Hibs and Celtic/Manchester United) 3 & 16
Andy Cunningham (Newmilns and Rangers ) 1 & 12
Kenny Dalglish (Cumbernauld United & Celtic/Liverpool) 1 & 102
Dixie Deans (Neilston Juniors and Celtic) 1 & 2
Bobby Dougan (Shawfield and Heart of Midlothian) 3 & 1
Jimmy Gordon (Renfrew Victoria and Rangers) 2 & 10
Dougie Gray (Mugiemoss and Rangers) 2 & 10
Bobby Hogg (Royal Albert and Celtic) 3 & 1
Jimmy Johnstone (Blantyre Celtic and Celtic) 1 & 23
James Lawrence (Glasgow Perthshire and Newcastle United) 1 & 1
Tommy Low (Parkhead and Rangers) 1 & 1
Alex Scott (Bo'ness United and Rangers/Everton) 2 & 16
Jim Scott (Bo’ness United and Hibernian) 1 & 1
Dave Mackay (Newtongrange Star and Heart of Midlothian/Tottenham Hotspur) 1 & 22
Peter Nellies (Douglas Water Thistle and Heart of Midlothian) 1 & 2
Willie Pettigrew (East Kilbride Thistle and Motherwell) 2 & 5
James Raeside (Parkhead and Third Lanark) 1 & 1
Harry Rennie (Greenock Volunteers and Heart of Midlothian/Hibernian) 1 & 13
Scot Symon (Dundee Violet and Rangers) 1 & 1
Bobby Walker (Dalry Primrose and Heart of Midlothian) 1 & 29
Paul Wilson (Blantyre Celtic and Celtic) 1 & 1
Benny Yorston (Mugiemoss and Aberdeen) 1 & 1
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Re: Double internationalists

Postby bluedragon » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:17 pm

......and another!

Ian Wallace (Yoker Athletic and Coventry City) 1 & 3
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Re: Double internationalists

Postby bluedragon » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:38 pm

I am indebted to have been advised of a list of double internationalists on Wikipedia. I have checked this out. This had 17 more names than the previous list that was posted here but that had 8 more than Wikipedia. Here is the latest list of 45 players with the new additions and one amendment shown in bold. We now have a “Wembley Wizard” on the list – Jimmy Dunn!

Johnny Anderson (Arthurlie and Leicester City) 2 & 1
Matt Armstrong (Port Glasgow and Aberdeen) 1 Junior cap & 3 Full caps
Alex Bennett (Rutherglen Glencairn and Celtic/Rangers) 3 (+1 to be confirmed) & 11
John Brown (Prestwick Glenburn Rovers/Shawfield and Clyde) 3 & 1
Jimmy Brownlie (Blantyre Victoria and Third Lanark) 1 & 16
Kenny Campbell (Cambuslang Rangers and Liverpool/Partick Thistle) 2 & 8
Steve Chalmers (Ashfield and Celtic) 1 & 5
Donald Colman (Maryhill and Aberdeen) 2 (+1 to be confirmed) & 4
Jimmy Connor (Glasgow Perthshire and Sunderland) 1 & 4
Pat Crerand (Duntocher Hibs and Celtic/Manchester United) 3 & 16
Johnny Crum (Ashfield and Celtic) 1 & 2
Andy Cunningham (Newmilns and Rangers ) 1 & 12
Kenny Dalglish (Cumbernauld United & Celtic/Liverpool) 1 & 102
Dixie Deans (Neilston Juniors and Celtic) 1 & 2
Bobby Dougan (Shawfield and Heart of Midlothian) 3 & 1
Jimmy Dunn (St Anthonys and Hibernian/Everton) 1 & 6
Bob Foyers (Burnbank Swifts and St Bernards) 1 & 2
John Gilchrist (St Anthonys and Celtic) 1 & 1
Jimmy Gordon (Renfrew Victoria and Rangers) 2 & 10
Dougie Gray (Mugiemoss and Rangers) 2 & 10
Bobby Hogg (Royal Albert and Celtic) 3 & 1
Drew Jarvie (Kilsyth Rangers and Airdrieonians) 2 & 3
Jimmy Johnstone (Blantyre Celtic and Celtic) 1 & 23
George Key (Parkhead and Heart of Midlothian) 1 & 1
James Lawrence (Glasgow Perthshire and Newcastle United) 1 & 1
Willie Lennie (Maryhill and Aberdeen) 1 & 2
Tommy Low (Parkhead and Rangers) 1 & 1
Tommy McInally (Maryhill and Celtic) 2 & 2
Dave Mackay (Newtongrange Star and Heart of Midlothian/Tottenham Hotspur) 1 & 22
Brian Martin (Shotts Bon Accord and Motherwell) 4 & 2
Hugh Morgan (Longriggend Wanderers and St Mirren/Liverpool) 1 & 2
Willie Muir (Glenbuck Athletic and Dundee) 1 &1
Peter Nellies (Douglas Water Thistle and Heart of Midlothian) 1 & 2
Willie Pettigrew (East Kilbride Thistle and Motherwell) 2 & 5
Pat Quinn (Bridgeton Waverley and Motherwell) 1 & 4
James Raeside (Parkhead and Third Lanark) 1 & 1
Harry Rennie (Greenock Volunteers and Heart of Midlothian/Hibernian) 1 & 13
Alex Scott (Bo'ness United and Rangers/Everton) 2 & 16
Jim Scott (Bo’ness United and Hibernian) 1 & 1
Nicol Smith (Darvel Juniors and Rangers) 1 & 12
Scot Symon (Dundee Violet and Rangers) 1 & 1
Bobby Walker (Dalry Primrose and Heart of Midlothian) 1 & 29
Paul Wilson (Blantyre Celtic and Celtic) 1 & 1
Benny Yorston (Mugiemoss and Aberdeen) 1 & 1
Ian Wallace (Yoker Athletic and Coventry City) 1 & 3
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Re: Double internationalists

Postby Snuff » Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:32 pm

Of course, with his cricket cap, Scot Symon is a triple internationalist.
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