Double internationalists

Scottish Football Answers to Questions

Re: Double internationalists

Postby bluedragon » Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:36 am

Snuff wrote:Of course, with his cricket cap, Scot Symon is a triple internationalist.


Thanks Matt.

Jumping threads to "UK Amateur Internationals" just below we should add Donald Ford to Scott Symon’s name as he won Amateur and Full International caps while at Hearts and also played cricket for Scotland.

I would suggest Englishman “Tip” Foster was the best triple internationalist of the lot. He played for England at Amateur and Full level at football and was a Test match cricketer. He captained England at both football and cricket. He scored 287 in his Test match debut in Sydney in 1903. It remains the highest score for a Test Match debut. At the time it was also a record score for a Test match (only overtaken in 1930) and the highest score in a Test Match at the Sydney Cricket Ground (only broken in 2012). He also scored a goal for England.
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Re: Double internationalists

Postby ScottishFA » Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:33 am

Donald Ford playing cricket for Scotland is a bit of a myth. He came close, but only appeared in a trial match and was never capped. See this for further details: http://www.scottishsporthistory.com/sports-history-news-and-blog/cricket-and-football-double-internationals

Mind you, you'll be opening a can of worms if you start to try and categorise those who were internationalists at football and another sport. There are more than you might think - Henry Renny-Tailyour at rugby, Robert Main Christie at curling, Jim Crawford at athletics, William Barbour Agnew at bowls, to name but a few.
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Re: Double internationalists

Postby bluedragon » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:04 am

ScottishFA wrote:Donald Ford playing cricket for Scotland is a bit of a myth. He came close, but only appeared in a trial match and was never capped. See this for further details: http://www.scottishsporthistory.com/sports-history-news-and-blog/cricket-and-football-double-internationals


Thanks Andy.

I had thought Donald Ford had played more times for Scotland at cricket so thanks for clarifying and giving the link to your blog.

A bit more on Donald’s one appearance for Scotland. 1980 was the first year Scotland were included in the Benson & Hedges Cup playing against the English Counties. Donald was in a 15-man squad that travelled to Worcester having accepted the county club’s invitation to the Scots to play two warm-up games on Saturday 26 April (55 overs per side and under B&H rules) and on Sunday 27 April (40 overs a side). As you say, Donald played in the second match. He batted at 4 and scored 7 before being caught by West Indian Test fast bowler Vanburn Holder off the bowling of Paul Pridgeon. Scotland did pretty well but bad light did not help them batting second and they lost by 80 runs.

It was a different era with other footballer/cricketers on the field that day apart from Donald.

Paul Pridgeon (the bowler that “got” Donald) was a centre half at Stourbridge and was in the team that got to the Welsh Cup Final in 1973/74 eventually losing to Cardiff City in the two-leg final but after disposing of both Swansea and Wrexham away from home.

Ted Hemsley was a left back who played around 500 league games for Shrewsbury Town, Sheffield United and Doncaster Rovers.

Phil Neale played for both Lincoln City and Scunthorpe United

John Inchmore was a good non-league footballer and played against Scotland in the 1972 Junior International when England and Scotland drew 2:2 with Donald's soon-to-be-team mate Rab Prentice scoring one of the Scotland goals.

As footballers Paul Pridgeon and Ted Hemsley can both claim to have played cricket and football at the same ground as Stourbridge and Sheffield United (at that time) were shared football/cricket grounds.
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Re: Double internationalists

Postby LEATHERSTOCKING » Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:48 pm

Lieut.Henry Waugh Renny-Tailyour(Royal Engineers) born Mussoorie, North West Province, India played for Scotland against England in the Rugby Union International at the Kennington Oval in 1872 and in the same fixture under Association football rules on the same ground on 8th March 1873 - the only football double Internationalist for Scotland. He also played for the Scottish side in one of the 5 England vs. Scotland "inter-nationals” organized by the English association pre 1872. As well as representing Kent at cricket, Renny-Tailyor appeared for the Gentlemen in Gentlemen v Players matches, and also played in first class matches for MCC, Gentlemen of the South, the South of England and a combined Kent and Gloucestershire XI. The “Gentlemen vs. Players” fixture was the game`s highest honour in those pre test match days.
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Re: Double internationalists

Postby Snuff » Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:07 am

I say Forrest old man. You've seriously under-ranked Renny-Tailyour; chap retired a full Colonel don't ya know. Damned bad form to reduce a fellow's rank.
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Re: Double internationalists

Postby bluedragon » Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:26 pm

Some more amendments:

Bobby Templeton played for Kilmarnock Rugby XI and was selected to play for Junior Scotland versus England in 1898. He was signed by Hibernian immediately afterwards. I have therefore added:

Bobby Templeton (Kilmarnock Rugby XI and Aston Villa/Newcastle United/Woolwich Arsenal/Kilmarnock) 1 & 11

I found some more matches played by Peter Nellis but where his surname was mis-spelt. This amends his record to:

Peter Nellies (Douglas Water Thistle and Heart of Midlothian) 4 & 2
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Re: Double internationalists

Postby LEATHERSTOCKING » Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:06 pm

Ah, he may have ended as a colonel but was he a colonel when he played? Sir Govan wasn`t Sir Govan during his playing days.
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Re: Double internationalists

Postby ScottishFA » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:55 pm

Another one:

Danny Liddle capped junior v Ireland in 1929, with Wallyford Bluebell, and three senior caps in 1931 with East Fife, while still only 19.
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Re: Double internationalists

Postby bluedragon » Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:02 pm

ScottishFA wrote:Another one:

Danny Liddle capped junior v Ireland in 1929, with Wallyford Bluebell, and three senior caps in 1931 with East Fife, while still only 19.


Thanks Andy. I have added Danny Liddle to the list. We have also found George Mulhall who was capped once as a Junior while at Kilsyth Rangers and then won three senior caps when he was at Aberdeen and Sunderland. A Kilsyth contact has confirmed that the Junior cap was George rather than his brother Martin who was also at Kilsyth and went senior at around the same time.
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Re: Double internationalists

Postby bluedragon » Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:25 pm

I have come across some other possibilities of Junior and Full Internationalists. If anyone can confirm one way or the other I would very much appreciate it.

Here are some “probables” -

James Croall (or Croal?)

Junior - Croall (Falkirk Juniors) 2 Junior caps in 1905 as a full back.
Senior - James Anderson Croall (Falkirk) inside left 3 Senior caps in 1913/14.

John Litster’s disk says that James Croall signed for Rangers on 3 April 1905. That would have been 2 days after Croall’s last Junior International. I have seen the Senior Croall’s surname spelt with a single “l”.

James Hamilton

Junior - Hamilton (Vale of Clyde) won 2 Junior caps in 1922 as a full back.
Senior – James Hamilton (St Mirren) won 1 Senior cap in 1924 and was a left back.

Johnny Kelly

Junior – Kelly (Arthurlie) won 1 Junior cap in 1939 at outside left.
Senior – John Carmichael Kelly won 2 caps in 1949 while at Barnsley and was an outside left.

Andy Weir

Junior – Weir (Arthurlie) won 1 Junior cap in 1955 as an outside left.
Senior - Andrew Best Weir (Motherwell) won 6 senior caps in 1959/60. An outside left.

Here are some “possibles” -

John Fyfe

Junior- Fyfe (South Western) playing at centre forward, one Junior cap in 1893.
Senior – John H Fyfe (Third Lanark) won three Senior caps in 1895. Described as an outside right.

David Gardner

Junior – Gardner (Possilpark) won 1 Junior cap in 1892 as a centre half.
Senior - David Richmond Gardner (Third Lanark) won 1 Senior cap in 1897 and was a left back.

Here are some “probably or definitely nots” -

Jimmy McMullen

Junior - McMullan (Denny Hibernian) captained the team as a centre half when he won a single Junior Cap in 1914.
Senior – Jimmy McMullan (Partick Thistle & Manchester City) won 16 caps between 1920 and 1929. A left half and of course a “Wembley Wizard”.

An earlier thread has already discounted the connection as the Senior McMullen made his Partick Thistle debut v Kilmarnock in November 1913.

Tommy Orr

Junior – Orr (Morton Juniors) won 1 Junior cap in 1938 as an outside left.
Senior - Thomas Bingham Orr (Morton) won two senior caps in 1952 as an inside forward.

There is a big gap in time between Junior and Senior caps. The Senior player would have been just too young to be that Junior international although he was playing in the Junior Cup Final just two years later.
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Re: Double internationalists

Postby ScottishFA » Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:56 pm

James Anderson Croal (definitely one l) is the same as the junior internationalist (x2).

There are several mentions of this, not least a profile in the Star Green 'un - Saturday 20 December 1919. Elsewhere, I like the story that in October 1910 he signed for Falkirk for £5, a sum which was beyond the reach of Dunfermline Athletic.

James Hamilton (Vale of Clyde) signed for St Mirren in April 1922, so definitely the same man.

Jack Fyfe - probably. Not a common name, although his games for South Western don't identify him with both initials (J H Fyfe). I think he had a season with St Mirren in 1893-94 before joining Thirds.

Dave Gardner - I don't think so, although I can't find out who he played for before Third Lanark.
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Re: Double internationalists

Postby bluedragon » Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:18 pm

Many thanks, Andy. That is extremely helpful.
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Re: Double internationalists

Postby RobertB » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:54 pm

The Andrew Best Weir is the same one from Arthurlie.
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Re: Double internationalists

Postby bluedragon » Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:08 am

RobertB wrote:The Andrew Best Weir is the same one from Arthurlie.


Thanks for the confirmation, Robert.
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Re: Double internationalists

Postby bluedragon » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:03 am

bluedragon wrote:
Tommy Orr

Junior – Orr (Morton Juniors) won 1 Junior cap in 1938 as an outside left.
Senior - Thomas Bingham Orr (Morton) won two senior caps in 1952 as an inside forward.

There is a big gap in time between Junior and Senior caps. The Senior player would have been just too young to be that Junior international although he was playing in the Junior Cup Final just two years later.


I see from John Litster's disk that Peter Orr was the outside left for Morton Juniors when the played in the 1940 Junior Cup Final. That looks like the Junior cap.
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