N.Ireland & R.of Ireland : three questions

Scottish Football Answers to Questions

N.Ireland & R.of Ireland : three questions

Postby Gabe » Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:45 pm

1- On 21st September 1969 Scotland faced RoI in Dublin.
To clarify the full names of three RoI players :

Brennan : James Seamus (Shay) Anthony . Wiki & some websites have not James. Which is right ?

Rogers: Edward. Wiki & football websites have also "Eamonn". What is Eamonn, a second proper name or a nickname ?

Givens: Daniel Joseph. Again Wiki & websites name him "Don". Same question : a nickname or his third proper name ?

2- Scotland played twice vs Nortern Ireland on May 1972 and May 1973.
N. Ireland had a player named Terence (Terry) Neill, which I found also as Irish manager in those matches. Was it a
homonymy or he was really player and manager at the same time ?

At last always to clarify.

3- Scotland played vs both N.Ireland and RoI faced opponents players named "Shay" or "Paddy".

Shay is always a shortening name for Seamus ?
Paddy is a shortening of Patrick ?

Thank you so much.
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Re: N.Ireland & R.of Ireland : three questions

Postby bluedragon » Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:20 pm

Gabe – I can help with Questions 1 & 2.

Question 1

The full names I have are:

Daniel Joseph Givens - Don is a nickname
James Seamus Anthony Brennan – he is known as Shay a shortened form of Seamus
Edward Eamonn Rogers – Eamonn is a second given name.

Question 2

Terence “Terry” Neill – Terry was indeed player/manager of Northern Ireland and IIRC was also player/manager at Hull City at the same time.
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Re: N.Ireland & R.of Ireland : three questions

Postby Gabe » Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:28 pm

Thanks bluedragon for your help.

I think to have replied by myself to the third question. Searching on internet I found : Shay is a shortened form of Seamus (as also you told me for Brennan) and Paddy is a shortened for Patrick and (if I well understood) a way to say : "Irish man".

I ask for your help now for 5 names again. Hope they are the last.

Here are the names :

1- Seamus Donal D’Arcy in the ‘50s . He was named both Jimmy and Paddy. Are they two nicknames ?
I don’t see a link with his proper names.

2- Francis Cole in the ‘50s. He was named Fay. Also for him a nickname?

3- Alexander S.McCordie in the ‘60/’70. He was Eric on the websites. Another nickname or this time a proper name ?

4- Patrick Joseph Healy in the ‘80s. I find he as Felix. Why?

5- Fionan Fagan in the '60s. He is named as "Paddy". This time maybe a nickname. He has not Patrick as proper.

Don't worry, Iam not going to become an Irish supporter. I am only trying to clarify the names for RSSSF archive.

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Re: N.Ireland & R.of Ireland : three questions

Postby bluedragon » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:04 pm

Gabe – You have raised some interesting questions! Here is my attempt to answer them.

You are generally looking at nicknames of players from many years ago. In these times they acquired nicknames through one of the following:

1. A widely used shortened version of their first name e.g. Alexander = Alex/Alec/Eck/Sandy/Sanny - Henry or Harold = Harry.

2. A widely used name associated with their surname, e.g, a Clark is often called Nobby, a Miller will be Windy or Dusty, a Bell will be Dinger, a Walker will be Hookey.

3. A name derived from their nationality e.g. Scot = Jock, Welsh = Taffy, Irish = Paddy. There was a time when this was acceptable but today of course we are very much more aware of the perception of using these names and they are generally not used. So in the past an Irish player may have been called Paddy but would not necessarily have the first name Patrick and a Scottish player in England may have been called Jock although his first name was not John.

4. A name given by friends, team mates, colleagues, etc the origins of which are lost in time! Billy Lewis who played for Third Lanark had the nickname “Flu”. Prior to a match he was suffering from influenza (flu) and sent a telegram to the club to say he could not play. Telegrams were paid for by the word and therefore brevity was important. His telegram read “Flu Lewis” and that how he got his nickname!

If a nickname does not fall into 1,2 or 3 above then you may have difficulty finding its origins unless you are lucky.

Turning to your specific questions here are some possible answers.

1- Seamus Donal D’Arcy - Séamus is the Irish Gaelic equivalent of James and so he may have got the nickname from this ie, Séamus = James = Jimmy.
2- Francis Cole – I cannot help I am afraid.
3- Alexander S.McCordie – again I cannot help.
4- Patrick Joseph Healy – had he been a goalkeeper then Felix the Cat would have been my guess.
5- Fionan Fagan - see above for Paddy.
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Re: N.Ireland & R.of Ireland : three questions

Postby Gabe » Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:44 pm

Thanks again bluedragon.

You gave me a great help, as always.

I am trying to clarify on my archive & RSSSF archive too (obviously) the difference between proper names and nicknames which we always find both in brackets.
I started with Scotland, then RoI and N.Ireland. Now I am doing some searches about the Netherlands players' name.

I am doing this, because a few years ago, finding "Sandy" for William Pullar Jardine, I knew by the help of David that "Sandy" was a nickname because of his colour hair !! So, no link with Alexander, which all we can see is not a proper name of Jardine.
But a few week ago, I found another Sandy : the goalkeeper McLaren and this time Sandy is a shortned form of his proper name.

From here the idea to write in brackets (Sandy) for McLaren and "Sandy" in quotations mark for Jardine.
This to clarify for the readers the difference between the two Sandy.

That's why the reason for my question about the doubts of the Irish names.
At last of this search, I will write a "Legenda"in which I explain the different cases of (......) & "......".

Hope to have been able to clear the reason of this.
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Re: N.Ireland & R.of Ireland : three questions

Postby bluedragon » Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:58 am

Gabe. Thanks for explaining what you are planning to do. It is good that you are looking at this for the RSSSF archive. One possibility is to consider writing in the "Legenda" the common shortened versions of the common Scottish first names, e.g. James, William, Alexander, etc. This would mean you would not have to show these against every player with one of these names. This would leave you only having to show in inverted commas players who are commonly known by one of:

1) a nickname
2) a shortened version of a less common first name
3) a middle name.

This is how it would look for some of the names we have already discussed together with a few others.

William Pullar Jardine “Sandy” (a nickname)
Daniel Joseph Givens “Don” (a nickname)
Edward Eamonn Rogers “Eamonn” (a middle name)
Patrick Joseph Healy “Felix” (a nickname)
Fionan Fagan “Paddy” (a nickname)
James Scotland Symon “Scot” (a shortened version of a less common middle name)
Douglas Duncan “Dally” (a nickname)
Cornelius Dougall “Neil” (a shortened version of a less common first name)
William John Bremner (no need to add Billy as it is a common shortened version of William)

You have mentioned the story of how Sandy Jardine was given his nickname through his hair colour. I have been researching a player who was known as Sandy Hair. His full name was Alexander Hair. However, as well as Sandy he was also known as Alec and Alex in his football days and Sanny by his family. What name would you include? It is difficult to choose one.

Still on the subject of hair I see Scottish International Archibald McCall was known as “Baldie”. How did he get that nickname? A shortened version of his first name or his lack of hair? Someone will know!

Good luck.
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