Junior International records

Scottish Football Answers to Questions
ScottishFA
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Re: Junior International records

Post by ScottishFA » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:03 pm

Yes, it's amazing that the birthdate of the captain of our most famous international team has been recorded wrongly for so long.

I could find no record of him playing for Third Lanark. He joined Partick Thistle from Denny Hibs in October 1913 after a couple of trials with the reserve side, and went almost straight into the first team. I suppose he could have played a trial with Third Lanark reserves but I've seen nothing in contemporary newspapers.

bluedragon
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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:59 pm

Jimmy McMullan

Andy – thanks for the place and date of birth of each of the two Jimmy McMullans. Following the earlier posts we had made it clear that the Junior Internationalist and “Wembley Wizard” are different players but we have now added this new detail to make it even clearer.

We have now found forenames for:

McKay (Elmwood)

He is George Sheriff “Piper” McKay who went on to play for both Dundee clubs, East Fife and Morton.

Brooks (Benburb)

He is George Brooks who before the War had played for St Bernard’s, Clyde, King’s Park & Dunfermline Athletic. He joined Benburb before returning to the Senior ranks with Dumbarton & Falkirk.

bluedragon
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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:43 am

The recent addition of more editions of the “Scottish Referee” to the British Newspaper Archive has given us the opportunity to find some more forenames for early players and another match. We currently have 380 matches. We also still have plenty of gaps that we are trying to fill.

Here is our latest list (in rank order) of the thirty players who have played the most matches for Junior Scotland. The number of games shown after each player are: Total matches – International matches – Other matches. We have also added the span of these matches. For these purposes we have defined “International matches” as those played at various times since 1889 against select sides labelled as representing England, Ireland, Isle of Man, Northern Ireland, Republic of Ireland and Wales. In total there are 264 International matches. “Other matches” are exactly that and where the Junior team is titled SJFA XI/Junior Scotland. There are 116 of these matches.

It is an interesting list and it is worth pointing out Bert McNab (=6) and Davie Mair (=24) who appear on the list from the 1950’s. This was a period when, for a variety of reasons, players did not collect a large number of caps despite the opportunity being there with, on average, 3 to 4 matches a season. If “International matches” only are counted then Bert McNab shares first place with Jackie Myles.

As ever, please let us know of any questions, corrections, etc.

1 Davie Fulton (Arthurlie) 22-12-10 (1992-1999)
2 Tommy Ure (Linlithgow Rose) 18-12-6 (1975-1981)
=3 Derek McCulloch (Auchinleck Talbot) 16-11-5 (1997-2001)
=3 Bryan Smith (Petershill & Shettleston) 16-9-7 (1993-1998)
5 Alex Hendrie (Shotts Bon Accord) 15-12-3 (1981-1986)
=6 Norrie Fulton (Johnstone Burgh, Petershill & Pollok) 14-12-2 (1975-1981)
=6 Bert McNab (Petershill) 14-13-1 (1951-1955)
=6 Jackie Myles (Bonnyrigg Rose) 14-13-1 (1982-1988)
=6 Billy Spence (Kelty Hearts & Hill of Beath Hawthorn) 14-6-8 (1994-1997)
=6 Steven Stewart (Tayport) 14-8-6 (1997-2000)
=11 Gavin Duncan (Arthurlie) 13-8-5 (1996-1999)
=11 Dougie Freedman (Petershill & Cambuslang Rangers) 13-11-2 (1978-1981)
=11 Tommy Reynolds (Cumnock) 13-9-4 (1979-1982)
=11 Duncan Sinclair (Lesmahagow & Cumnock) 13-9-4 (1992-1998)
=15 John Chalmers (Lesmahagow) 12-10-2 (1978-1981)
=15 Bryan Dingwall (Maryhill & Pollok) 12-10-2 (2005-2010)
=15 Robert Downs (Arthurlie & Pollok) 12-11-1 (2003-2008)
=15 Dennis Gray (Auchinleck Talbot) 12-8-4 (1975-1980)
=19 Joe Carruth (Glenafton Athletic & Pollok) 11-9-2 (2000-2007)
=19 Gary Graham (Beith Juniors & Auchinleck Talbot) 11-7-4 (1994-1998)
=19 Ronnie Lowrie (Blantyre Victoria & Baillieston) 11-8-3 (1979-1982)
=19 Iain Ross (Lochee United) 11-10-1 (2005-2010)
=19 Willie Young (Auchinleck Talbot) 11-11-0 (1983-1988)
=24 Chris McKenzie (Camelon) 10-6-4 (1995-1997)
=24 Iain Ashcroft (Arthurlie & Pollok) 10-7-3 (1988-1997)
=24 Raymond Day (Cumnock) 10-9-1 (1989-1994)
=24 Marc Graham (Hill of Beath Hawthorn) 10-7-3 (1999-2008)
=24 Davie Mair (Stonehouse Violet) 10-8-2 (1952-1954)
=24 Mike McManus (Lochee Harp) 10-5-5 (1978-1989)
=24 Derek Wingate (Benburb & Irvine Meadow XI) 10-7-3 (2001-2007)

ScottishFA
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Re: Junior International records

Post by ScottishFA » Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:27 pm

One more name for the double international list (I think): Frank Murphy.

Scotland cap with Celtic, v Netherlands in May 1938.

Played for Scottish Junior League (v Irish Free State) and Scottish Junior Select (v Scottish Alliance) while with Croy Celtic in 1931/32.
Played for Scotland v Irish Free State while with Maryhill Hibs in 1932/33.
Then had a season with St Rochs (uncapped) before being called up to Celtic in April 1934 - he had signed provisional forms in autumn 1931.

bluedragon
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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:42 pm

ScottishFA wrote:One more name for the double international list (I think): Frank Murphy.

Scotland cap with Celtic, v Netherlands in May 1938.

Played for Scottish Junior League (v Irish Free State) and Scottish Junior Select (v Scottish Alliance) while with Croy Celtic in 1931/32.
Played for Scotland v Irish Free State while with Maryhill Hibs in 1932/33.
Then had a season with St Rochs (uncapped) before being called up to Celtic in April 1934 - he had signed provisional forms in autumn 1931.
Thanks Andy.

I have now added Frank Murphy to the list with his Junior Cap while at Maryhill Hibernian playing against the Irish Intermediate League representing Ireland. Thank you for making the connection. The match against the Scottish Alliance was a Scottish Junior League Select.

We now have 51 players who have won a Junior Cap(s) against sides representing, at various times, England, Ireland, Northern Ireland, Republic of Ireland or Wales. We have another nine players (shown at the end) who won full International caps but played for Junior Scotland in non-international matches.

Brown JB (Glenburn Rovers & Shawfield)
Brownlie J (Blantyre Victoria)
Campbell K (Cambuslang Rangers)
Chalmers TS (Ashfield)
Colman DC (Maryhill)
Connor J (Glasgow Perthshire)
Crerand PT (Duntocher Hibernian)
Croal JA (Falkirk Juniors)
Crum J (Ashfield)
Cunningham A (Newmilns)
Deans JK (Neilston)
Dougan R (Shawfield)
Dunn J (St Anthony's)
Foyers R (Burnbank Swifts)
Fyfe JH (South Western)
Gilchrist JW (St Anthony's)
Gordon JE (Renfrew Victoria)
Gray DH (Mugiemoss)
Hamilton J (Vale of Clyde)
Hogg RB (Royal Albert)
Jarvie A (Kilsyth Rangers)
Johnstone JC (Blantyre Celtic)
Kelly JC (Arthurlie)
Key GB (Parkhead)
Lawrence J (Glasgow Perthshire)
Lennie W (Maryhill)
Liddle DSH (Wallyford Bluebell)
Low T (Parkhead)
Mackay DC (Newtongrange Star)
Martin B (Shotts Bon Accord)
McInally TB (St Anthony's)
Morgan H (Longriggend Wanderers)
Muir W (Glenbuck Athletic)
Mulhall G (Kilsyth Rangers)
Murphy F (Maryhill Hibernian)
Nellies P (Douglas Water Thistle)
Pettigrew WH (East Kilbride Thistle)
Quinn P (Bridgeton Waverley)
Raeside JS (Parkhead)
Rennie HG (Greenock Volunteers)
Richmond A (Parkhead)
Scott AS (Bo'ness United)
Scott J (Bo'ness United)
Smith N (Darvel)
Symon JS (Dundee Violet)
Templeton RB (Kilmarnock Rugby XI)
Walker RS (Dalry Primrose)
Wallace IA (Yoker Athletic)
Weir AB (Arthurlie)
Wilson P (Blantyre Celtic)
Yorston BC (Mugiemoss)

Full International caps but non-International Junior Scotland matches
Brogan JA (St Roch's)
Collins RY (Pollok)
Dalglish KM (Cumbernauld United)
Easson JF (Carnoustie Panmure)
Morris D (Newtongrange Star)
Pringle CR (Maryhill)
Russell WF (Benburb)
Smith G (Dundee North End)
Stewart D (Minerva)

bluedragon
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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:35 am

We are just about to finish Version 3 of a record of 405 matches (Internationals and other games) played by Junior Scotland from 1889. Can anyone help with some details of four matches against Senior clubs? They are:

3 April 1992 v Heart of Midlothian – Junior Scotland team, score, scorers and venue.

4 October 1993 v Raith Rovers XI - Junior Scotland team, score, scorers and venue.

8 March 1995 v Hamilton Academical XI at Prestonfield, Linlithgow - Junior Scotland XI that took the field (we have the squad), score and scorers.

Sometime on or before 21 February 2001 v Clyde XI - Confirmation of date, Junior Scotland team, scorers and venue.

Thank you.

BMCCOLL
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Re: Junior International records

Post by BMCCOLL » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:32 pm

Version 3 is now available for general download.

Because of some hosting issues I have created a new subsiduary site that will hopefully eventually contain as much Junior content as possible and this will host the Database.

The new site's address is...
Scottish Junior Football History
with the link to the excel spreadsheet.

Thanks again to Douglas and Tom for creating such a comprehensive record and for allowing me to host it.
http://scottish-football-historical-archive.co.nf

cowdenbeather
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Re: Junior International records

Post by cowdenbeather » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:43 pm

The goalkeeper listed as Charlie Wright of Rutherglen Glencairn says in the notes that John Litster has him as Ernest Wright. Ernest is correct - he is on Facebook and it highlights he was a goalkeeper for Rutherglen Glencairn in the 1960s and was capped in the 1960s. Charlie Wright played for Rutherglen Glencairn in the 1950s (farmed out by Rangers I think) and was the well known goalkeeper of Charlton Athletic for many years

bluedragon
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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:41 pm

cowdenbeather wrote:The goalkeeper listed as Charlie Wright of Rutherglen Glencairn says in the notes that John Litster has him as Ernest Wright. Ernest is correct - he is on Facebook and it highlights he was a goalkeeper for Rutherglen Glencairn in the 1960s and was capped in the 1960s. Charlie Wright played for Rutherglen Glencairn in the 1950s (farmed out by Rangers I think) and was the well known goalkeeper of Charlton Athletic for many years
Thank you very much for the details and I have made the correction to our next version.

The timing of the issue of John Litster’s latest Post-War player records was excellent for us. We came across several differences in spelling, e.g. Ian/Iain, Steel/Steele, etc. with our records. These did not immediately concern us as we knew we had the same player and John’s spelling was almost certainly correct as many of ours had been taken from newspaper reports. There is a short list (Ernest Wright was on that) where it looked as if we had different players. We have just started to look through these and so thank you for getting us started!

bluedragon
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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Sat May 18, 2019 1:30 pm

Sureitza and I have now found 416 matches (264 internationals and 152 other games) played by Junior Scotland. We have identified 2,356 players but have another 221 players to identify from matches where we do not have the team line-up. Of the players we have identified we do not have a forename or even a first initial for 111 players. Our immediate focus is on the 38 of those players who played in Internationals. We have searched in amongst other places the British Newspaper Archive and John Litster’s pre-War disk but with no luck. I realise it is like looking for a needle in a haystack but just in case any of the names ring any bells or perhaps someone knows of somewhere else to look here they are:
Bennie (Glasgow Perthshire) (1927)
Brown (Renfrew) (1916 & 1920)
Clark (St Ninian's Thistle) (1908)
Cotton (Argyll) (1926)
Dysart (Ashfield) (1901)
Easton (Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic) (1898)
Findlay (Darvel) (1927)
Graham (Dundee Arnot) (1908)
Grant (Muirkirk Athletic) (1915)
Gray (Hamilton West End Rangers) (1889 & 1890)
Grieve (Duntocher Hibernian) (1904)
Hannigan (Blantyre Celtic) (1924)
Henderson (Douglas Water Thistle) (1913)
Hosie (Moore Park) (1897)
Hunter (Burnbank Athletic) (1927)
Irvine (Dalziel Rovers) (1907)
Jamieson (Shettleston) (1924)
Keith (Glasgow Perthshire) (1926)
Kennedy (Yoker Athletic) (1927)
Kerr (Coalburn) (1929)
Leslie (Benburb) (1890)
Logan (Dunaskin Lads) (1921)
McDonald (Dalry Primrose) (1898)
McFarlane (Possilpark) (1889)
McIntosh (Cambuslang Rangers) (1921)
McKinlay (Airdrieonians 'A') (1896)
McMurray (Strathclyde) (1927)
McNair (Grange Rovers) (1905)
McNulty (Cadzow St Anne's) (1926)
Miller (Earnock Rovers) (1909)
Morrison (Drongan) (1920)
Robertson (Blantyre Victoria) (1915)
Sneddon (Hamilton West End Rangers) (1890)
Stewart (Blantyre Celtic) (1920)
Thomson (Burnbank Athletic) (1920)
Timmins (Shotts United) (1917)
Tough (Mugiemoss) (1911)
Wilson (Corporation Cleansing Department) (1928)

bluedragon
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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:42 am

"Sureitza" and I have completed Version 4 of the Junior International database. Brian McColl is kindly hosting it on his evolving dedicated Scottish Junior Football History website. Here is the link:

http://sjfh.co.nf/index.htm

There is a further link: (“SCOTLAND JUNIOR INTERNATIONAL DATABASE”) that will take you to the records.

We have now added, mostly through "Sureiza’s" work, another 23 non-international matches, e.g. benefits, matches against Junior selects and Senior teams. This and further research has given us another 144 named players. We have also added a column where we have shown if we have been able to link a player to a Scottish League player on John Litster’s Pre-War disk. We already had this for Post-War players. As we explain in the introduction there are probably many more Pre-War players that could be linked given more time but it is a start! As with the previous version there is an “Information required” sheet that lists missing information for some matches and players where we do not have a first name/initial.

With the help of “Gabe” we have been able to add a list of players capped at any two of amateur, junior and full levels on the Rec.Sport.Soccer Statistics Foundation (RSSSF) website. Here is a link:

http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/scot-doublecaps.html

As always, we are very interested in getting even more details, corrections, questions, etc.

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