Junior International records

Scottish Football Answers to Questions
bluedragon
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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Sat Apr 11, 2020 4:57 pm

Thanks Andy. I think we had Willie Key in the “not absolutely sure” column as we could not see the link from Vale of Clyde to Queen’s Park. Thank you for giving us our 57th Junior/Full Internationalist.

The Key brothers International/Cup record at both grades is very impressive and probably unique. The nearest in solely Junior football are the McLennan brothers of Saltcoats Victoria who were capped in the same Junior Scotland team and played in the same Junior Cup winning team.

I have just come across identical twins playing for “England” (Birmingham FA) against Junior Scotland in 1910. Jack Lamb played at inside left and his brother Walter at outside left and each was said to have had an uncanny understanding of the play of the other.

ScottishFA
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Re: Junior International records

Post by ScottishFA » Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:02 pm

By the way, I see that you have the elder brother as George Brown Key. This is another Doug Lamming mistake, he was plain George Key, born 1878.

bluedragon
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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:26 am

ScottishFA wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:02 pm
By the way, I see that you have the elder brother as George Brown Key. This is another Doug Lamming mistake, he was plain George Key, born 1878.
Thanks again Andy. I will correct the record.

Parkside
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Re: Junior International records

Post by Parkside » Thu May 21, 2020 10:03 am

I am fairly certain that the Shotts United player capped as a forward against England in April 1917 was J Timmins.
Timmins played at centre forward for Shotts United during the 1916-17 season and although he gets a mention in a few newspaper reports there is no record of his first name or initial. There are however a few clues from the seasons before and after he was capped.
During the previous 1915-16 season East Benhar Heatherbell, who played only a few miles from Shotts, had a P Timmins (defender) and J Timmins (centre forward) in their line up.
In August 1917, the season after Timmins gained his cap against England, his name is in the Glenboig line up. I know it's him as he is listed as Timmins (International Centre) but again no first name or initial given.
However a few months later another Timmins appears in the Glenboig line up and the two players are distinguished by their initials as P Timmins (defender) and J Timmins (centre forward).
As the initials and positions of the Timmins in the Glenboig team are the same as in the East Benhar team of two years earlier I would guess they are the same players and it is likely they were related (possibly brothers?)
There are no other football Timmins mentioned in the Lanarkshire area over these three seasons.

bluedragon
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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Thu May 21, 2020 4:38 pm

Thank you very much for finding the first initial of Timmins of Shotts United. Reading through your findings I am sure that it is the same player. Often the only time in those early days we have found a first initial is when a player of the same name is in the same team. However, you then get the question "which one is it?"

Thanks again and I have updated the records.

bluedragon
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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Fri May 22, 2020 11:05 am

I have checked the notes of our search for Timmins and they read:

“We believe Timmins was a centre-forward. A centre forward Timmons turns up at Cleland 1918-21. Then a centre forward James Timmins is at Fauldhouse United 1922-24. In one of those years the newspaper says Fauldhouse re-sign veteran Timmins.”

This sounds as if he could be the same player and so “J” could be “James”.

Thanks for your help Parkside.

bluedragon
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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:45 am

We have so far identified 2,525 players who have represented the Scottish Junior Football Association in both international and other matches. We have a forename(s) or first initial(s) for all but 97 of them. Of those, 34 played in international matches and we are concentrating on trying to find a forename/initial for this group. We are confident we can reduce that number a little further indeed this morning with a lead provided by a historian of Bo’ness junior clubs we reduced the list by one with a player from 1901.

Here is the list (in club alphabetical order - current clubs in capital letters) as it stands. Most of the players have common surnames, played for clubs that are now defunct and the most recent cap was in 1937. However, who knows perhaps a scan down the list may just come up with a few suggestions, leads, ideas, etc. that we can follow up.

Airdrieonians 'A' - McKinlay (1896)
Argyll (Aberdeen) - Cotton (1926)
Benburb - Leslie (1890)
BLANTYRE VICTORIA - Robertson (1915)
Burnbank Athletic – Hunter (1927); Thomson (1920)
CAMBUSLANG RANGERS - McIntosh (1921)
Clydebank Juniors - Mills (1917)
Coalburn - Kerr (1929)
Corporation Cleansing Department - Wilson (1928)
DALKEITH THISTLE - McBurnie (1932)
Dalziel Rovers - Irvine (1907)
DARVEL- Findlay (1927)
Douglas Water Thistle - Henderson (1913)
Drongan - Morrison (1920)
Dumbarton Juniors - Hislop (1923)
Dunaskin Lads - Logan (1921)
Dundee Arnot - Graham (1908)
DUNIPACE JUNIORS - Taylor (1927); Cairns (1928)
Duntocher Hibernian - Grieve (1904)
Earnock Rovers - Miller (1909)
GLASGOW PERTHSHIRE - Bennie (1927); Keith (1926)
Hamilton West End Rangers - Sneddon (1890)
Moore Park - Hosie (1897)
Morton Juniors - Fleming (1937)
Mugiemoss - Tough (1911)
Muirkirk Athletic - Grant (1915)
Ormiston Primrose - Gray (1931)
RENFREW - Brown (1916 & 1920)
Renfrew Victoria - Leitch (1910)
Shawbank - Wilson (1894)
Strathclyde - McMurray (1927)

Thank you.

ScottishFA
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Re: Junior International records

Post by ScottishFA » Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:24 pm

Clydebank - Davie Mills (or Mill).

Falkirk Herald, 22 July 1916 - the signing of Davie Mill, crack outside left of Cowie Wanderers, is a good stroke of business on the part of Clydebank Juniors.

Kirkintilloch Herald, 7 August 1918 - that clever Stirling recruit, Davie Mill, who has seen service with Clydebank Juniors, has given his signature to Kilsyth Emmet.

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Re: Junior International records

Post by ScottishFA » Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:29 pm

Morton Juniors - John Fleming

See player list with first names for entire squad in Port Glasgow Express, 23 July 1937

He joined Morton Juniors from Neilston Vics in summer 1935.

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Re: Junior International records

Post by ScottishFA » Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:02 pm

Dalkeith Thistle - Willie McBurnie

Listed as an internationalist in Dalkeith Thistle match programmes.

He signed from Wemyss Athletic (Prestonpans) in 1931 and moved to Thorntree United (Prestonpans) in 1933.

NB Willie McBurnie was captain and centre half of Broxburn United in the late 1920s - for such an uncommon name this seems like quite a coincidence.

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Re: Junior International records

Post by ScottishFA » Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:17 pm

Strathclyde - Samuel McMurray

Moved from Strathclyde to Bridgeton Waverley. He was a policeman and not only played football for Glasgow City Police, he boxed for them. His nickname was 'Snappy'.

bluedragon
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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:46 pm

Thanks Andy. These are much appreciated and it is good to get an extra pair of eyes!

DAVIE MILLS (MILL)

We already had him as a Kilsyth Emmet player capped in 1919 but had not made the Clydebank connection.

WILLIE McBURNIE

It certainly looks like the same player as the dates tie in and both were centre halves.

ScottishFA
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Re: Junior International records

Post by ScottishFA » Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:01 am

Another one: Ormiston Primrose - Charles (Charley) Gray

See Dundee Evening Telegraph 12 March 1931, 'The men of Ormiston'. The article also notes that several players were signed from Edinburgh Emmet, who disbanded in 1930 (and had John Gray capped in 1929).

bluedragon
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Re: Junior International records

Post by bluedragon » Mon Dec 14, 2020 3:04 pm

ScottishFA wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:01 am
Another one: Ormiston Primrose - Charles (Charley) Gray

See Dundee Evening Telegraph 12 March 1931, 'The men of Ormiston'. The article also notes that several players were signed from Edinburgh Emmet, who disbanded in 1930 (and had John Gray capped in 1929).
Andy - Thanks for this one as well.

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Re: Junior International records

Post by ScottishFA » Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:24 pm

Coalburn - Alex Kerr

Full squad list with first names in Wishaw Press, 19 July 1929

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