C Division - is there a comprehensive source?

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C Division - is there a comprehensive source?

Post by ScottishFA » Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:36 pm

I was recently trying to look up some results from the C Division days, and of course it was not easy.

The final tables are all published, but has anyone ever managed to compile a complete set of results and (even better) match dates? It would be a great boon to have this available.

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Post by honestman » Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:14 pm

I have almost all the results and dates from Division 'C' for seasons 1946/47 through to 1950/51 plus results from the Division 'C' Supplementary Cup. Unfortunately these are only in note form and have never been typed up.
Are you looking for anything specific?

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Post by Scottish » Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:24 pm

Some of the early post-war annuals published fixture DATES. Whether the games were played on the scheduled date is another matter but can be checked against Sunday papers.The Scotsman's digital archive runs up until December 31st 1950 so a search should produce a lot of the results - if not all - until then.

Club-wise, Dumbarton's season in the C Division in 1954-55 is covered in 'Sons of the Rock' with dates, results, scorers & line-ups and Edinburgh City likewise is covered (I think) in the disk accompanying 'Marine Gardens to Meadowbank.'

Given the number of Angus sides in the C Division all Saturday matches played by Montrose, Forfar & Brechin had reports in the Sunday Post, usually with line-ups & scorers.

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Post by Alan McCabe » Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:06 pm

While The Scotsman archive is a remarkable source of information, it can produce the odd infuriating moment when researching.
I tried to produce a results grid for the Scottish Alliance & Western League for season 1922-23 with dates marked where known but uncovered an anomaly I had never before encountered.......the half result!
Due to the newspaper columns being 'cut' into sections for the archive zoom ins, occasionally the careless archiver slices in a wee bit too far. So on October 21, 1922 for instance, the Alliance results were:-
Ayr United A..........1 Dundee Hibernian........
Partick Th A...........2 Dundee A...................
St Mirren A............2 Third Lanark A............
The Western League kinda produced :
Dykehead..............0 Arthurlie.....................
Royal Albert...........4 Queens Park Strollers..
Queen of the Sth....7 Hurlford......................
Nithsdale Wand.......0 Solway Star................
Probably safe to assume that Hurlford lost!
I have grids covering 95% of both of these leagues for that season but have infuriatingly failed to fill the odd gap. Only 11 full & 5 'half results' short in the Alliance & 22 full & those 4 'half results' missing for the Western. A lot of those missing in the latter event involved Queen's Park Strollers & Hurlford and I'm fairly sure one (Hurlford), if not both, failed to complete the season.
Not 'C' Division I know, but I hope of interest to some.

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Post by Scottish » Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:47 pm

Alan McCabe wrote: Queen of the Sth....7 Hurlford......................
Probably safe to assume that Hurlford lost!
7-0 for QOS

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Post by ScottishFA » Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:28 pm

honestman wrote:I have almost all the results and dates from Division 'C' for seasons 1946/47 through to 1950/51 plus results from the Division 'C' Supplementary Cup. Unfortunately these are only in note form and have never been typed up.
Are you looking for anything specific?
Thanks for the reply. There is nothing specific I was looking for, just hoping to find a complete published source, for current and future reference.

Judging by this and the other responses, I take it the answer is 'no'!

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Post by honestman » Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:12 pm

Hopefully in the not too distant future I will be in the position to produce dates and results for almost all the Division C fixtures(1946-1955) as these (in my opinion) should be included and become part of the complete record of Scottish League results.

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Post by BMCCOLL » Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:42 am

Stuart has allowed me to post his work with the C Division results from 1946-1950. This also includes the League Cup and Supplementary League competitions. There are a couple results missing but the file is just about complete.

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Post by ScottishFA » Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:45 am

This is really terrific, well done for such a great piece of research.

I can fill in some of the gaps from various sources

1947/48
There is a note about a possible abandonment of Edinburgh City v Forfar on Oct 11 - however, on this day Edinburgh City were playing a Qualifying Cup match at Stranraer. Also, from the recent Edinburgh City history, the date of the home game v Kilmarnock A was 1 November.

1948/49
Fixture dates for the season were given in the Evening Dispatch Football Handbook, which may be a useful pointer although there is no guarantee that matches were actually played on the scheduled date:
Dundee Utd A v Raith Rovers A - 21 August
Dunfermline A v Forfar Athletic - 18 September
Kilmarnock A v Airdrieonians A - 1 January
Montrose v Dunfermline A - 1 September
St Johnstone A v Dunfermline A - 4 January
St Johnstone A v Forfar Athletic - 6 November
What may spoil the theory is the fixture date for Edinburgh City v Leith Athletic was supposed to be 1 September, but the club history gives the date as 25 August with the result 0-5.

Supplementary League Section B
Edinburgh City history gives Queen's Park Strollers v City as 13 April, result 3-0.

1949/50
C Division North Eastern Section
The Hibs handbook for 50/51 supplies two of the missing results:
Hibernian A v Hearts A, 26 December, result 2-1
Leith Athletic v Hibernian A, 11 February, result 1-1

Meanwhile, the Dispatch handbook gives a date of 29 October for Arbroath A v Dundee United A. I thought it would be possible to deduct the score from the final league table, but although the goals tallies indicate a 3-0 win for Arbroath, unfortunately Dundee United's totals indicate a draw while Arbroath's totals indicate a home win. Could be a problem with the total tallies?

C Division South West Section
The Kilmarnock Programme Collectors Guide gives the date for the Kilmarnock A v Albion Rovers A match as 11 February, as a programme was issued (assuming the game was not postponed).

The fixture list indicates that Rangers A v Queen of the South A should have been on 13 August, but I note the grid says that Rangers A played Partick Thistle A on this date. The Thistle game was scheduled for 24 December.

I hope these comments are useful as you move towards a completed set of results.

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Post by honestman » Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:30 pm

Thanks for the additional information. Hopefully the other seasons will follow soon although season 1952/53 has a number of gaps.
The problem lies when you total up the results and compare them with the printed league tables which I originally got from an early AFS Report(1980) by a fellow called Phil Hollow(from Plymouth). I wonder where he got them from? Anyway, this is the reason I did not forward any league tables to Brian McColl for inclusion on his website as there are still some figures to be sorted out.

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Post by BMCCOLL » Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:11 pm

The RSSSF archive has C Division tables supplied by David. I also have copies from the old AFS SFL book but again am unsure of their accuracy.

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Post by Scottish » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:26 pm

I gave Dinant Abbink of the RSSSF tables from 1949-1955 but some of these ( I forget exactly which ones) were from the aforementioned AFS book so any caveats on that score should also apply to the RSSSF tables.

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Post by steve994 » Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:04 pm

<i>I gave Dinant Abbink of the RSSSF tables from 1949-1955 but some of these ( I forget exactly which ones) were from the aforementioned AFS book so any caveats on that score should also apply to the RSSSF tables.</i>

The RSSSF tables have at least two errors.

1952-53 north east section: 928 goals scored, 898 conceded
1953-54 south west section: 800 goals scored, 801 conceded.

In 1949 when division C was regionalised 22 reserve teams joined, and in 1955 21 left. Where did they come from or go to?

Steve

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Post by BMCCOLL » Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:02 pm

The 16 club Scottish Reserve League, which was a mirror of the A Division, was disbanded in 1949 and all its clubs were placed in the newly regionalised C Division.
When the bottom section was abolished in 1955, the 18 A Division reserve sides re-formed the Scottish (Reserve) League which again was identical to the top division.

As for the others I'm afraid I don't have any notes as to where they came from or went to.
However both Ayr United and Kilmarnock fielded 'A' sides in the 1947-48 South of Scotland League.
In 1956-57, six reserve sides formed a Scottish Alliance - Dumbarton, St Johnstone, Clyde, Dundee United, Third Lanark, and Queen's Park Victoria XI. Cowdenbeath joined for the Spring league.
And Dunfermline Athletic placed a side in the 1957-58 East of Scotland League.

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Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:03 am

Brian,

I don`t think it would have been the Queen`s Park`s Victoria Xl which went into the Alliance because that`s the under 18s side. In 1956-57 season, the Strollers would have been in the Reserve League so it would probably have been the Hampden Xl (Queen`s 3rd Xl) which played in the Alliance.

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