Goal Average to Goal Difference

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Footballfan247
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Goal Average to Goal Difference

Post by Footballfan247 » Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:51 am

I wondered if anyone could tell me when the Scottish League changed from GA to GD to rank teams on the same points in a division? Also, what format was used in the Sectional round of the League Cup?

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Post by the hibLOG » Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:47 am

I think I'm right in saying that goal difference wasn't introduced until the creation of the Premier League set-up in 1975-76.

From the inception of the League Cup in 1946-47 until 1971-72, all the league clubs were drawn into eight groups of either three or four teams who played each other home and away. The winners of each group were drawn into quarter final ties which were two-legged home and away matches, followed by single semi-final ties on neutral venues.

In 1972-73 and 73-74 a second round of 16 qualifiers from the group stages was introduced, with home and away knock-out ties producing the eight quarter finalists. It then returned to the previous format for the next two seasons.

The sectional format was abandoned from season 1977-78 to 80-81 but revived in 81-82 until 83-84. In 83-84 however the group section came AFTER two knockout rounds (one a qualifying round for the lowest league clubs) to determine the participants in four groups which generated four semi-finalists.
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Post by Scottish » Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:50 am

Goal difference was first used in 1971-72. Also, the League Cup was drawn in top and lower division sections so that the quarter-finalists (in theory) consisted of four sides from each division. At that stage there was no further seeding in the draw.

From 1955-56 onwards the bottom five or six in the Second Division had their own section where the winner faced another bottom division side in a supplementary round. Again, from 1955-56, the two promoted teams found themselves playing in a lower division section.

The only exception to this was in 1972-73 when the sections were drawn in equal numbers of two to and two bottom division sides in each section bar the one reserved for the clubs at the very bottom.

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Post by the hibLOG » Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:16 pm

scottish wrote:Goal difference was first used in 1971-72.
Ah. Do you want to tell Soccerbase or shall I?
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Post by Scottish » Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:35 pm

No point. They never seem to correct errors. A good example of where they get it wrong is the 2nd division table for 72-73 where they have Stirling Albion above Raith on goal average. Both teams had identical goal differences (+31) but Raith actually finished above Stirling on goals scored. All contemporary tables show Raith 3rd and Stirling 4th.

Although the change was made in 71-72 it didn't affect any positions that season. Where teams had the same points the side finishing higher had both the better GA & GD.

Oddly enough the chief proponents of the change were Hearts who of course lost the title in 1965 on goal average and would have won it on goal difference. In 1986 they lost the title on goal difference but would have won it on goal average.

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Post by the hibLOG » Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:15 am

Actually I've usually found them quite compliant and grateful when I've pointed things out to them before, such as the Zemmama/Zambernardi nonsense at the start of the season. Perhaps the amount of recalculation involved in GA/GD will be too much work but it is a pretty major error.

I'll drop them a line and see what they say.
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Post by Scottish » Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:52 pm

I've sent them a few things in the past but never had a reply. Surely they only have to change their scripting (if more than x clubs are level on points in y seasons then separate by z or some such computerese which defeats me) than manually re-tabulate.

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Post by Sat31March1928 » Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:23 pm

scottish wrote:I've sent them a few things in the past but never had a reply. Surely they only have to change their scripting (if more than x clubs are level on points in y seasons then separate by z or some such computerese which defeats me) than manually re-tabulate.
That's what I did with the league tables for every day.


http://www.londonhearts.com/scores/ltab ... rlist.html
Jackson; James; Jackson; James; Jackson

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Post by BMCCOLL » Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:06 pm

Why did the ridiculous concept of using goal averages instead of goal differences become accepted? It must have been a nightmare for statisticians before the calculator!

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Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:53 pm

Don`t know why goal average became the accepted way of separating sides equal on points but it wasn`t difficult to calculate before computers & calculators because we could all do mental arithmetic in the good ol` days. Mental logarithms for fun every morning certainly kept the brain ticking over: I can still do it. Go on, try me with one. I still use sines, cosines & tangents in my business to calculate roof pitches. Oh, the merriment of it all.

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Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:54 pm

Where IS this thread going?

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Post by Scottish » Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:11 pm

BMCCOLL wrote:Why did the ridiculous concept of using goal averages instead of goal differences become accepted? It must have been a nightmare for statisticians before the calculator!
So that Kilmarnock could win the league in 1965. Which is as good a reason as any.

Of course a lot of countries use head-to-heads before goal difference and FIFA and UEFA now do as well which is why Scotland are still top of their group even though France have a superior goal difference AND goal average.

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Post by BMCCOLL » Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:48 pm

LEATHERSTOCKING wrote:I still use sines, cosines & tangents in my business to calculate roof pitches. Oh, the merriment of it all.
I'd forgotten how to do these the moment I left school, how very odd!!!

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Post by Skyline Drifter » Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:55 pm

BMCCOLL wrote:Why did the ridiculous concept of using goal averages instead of goal differences become accepted? It must have been a nightmare for statisticians before the calculator!
Could someone explain how "goal average" was calculated? I've always wondered what made it different?

Reference to the Hearts and Celtic campaign in 86 would be ideal since it was widely reported Hearts would have won on "goal average".

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Post by BMCCOLL » Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:02 pm

Goals scored were divided by goals conceded to give an average.

eg
1st - 50 Against 25 gives an ave of 2.0000
2nd - 51 Against 26 gives an ave of 1.9615

Although the difference is the same the average puts the first above the second by 0.0385 of a goal.

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