Dumbartonshire star players to play professional football

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Carlucci
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Dumbartonshire star players to play professional football

Post by Carlucci » Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:59 pm

Who is the Scotsman to be recognize as the first professional football player in England?

Profesionalism was made legal in England 1884, but it took more years to reach that agreement en Scotland (I think that 1893 was the year) . Until 1896, April 4th. (Scotland 3-0 England) the Scottish national side did not line up any man that played in Football League. During those years (between 1884 & 1893 could professional Scots player to be line up in the Scottish national side, or were they banned due to being professionals.

When professionalsim arrived , some powerful sides in Scotland, Vale of Leven, Renton & Dumbarton lost many players, who crossed the border south to play in proffesional English sides. Could you mention the main important names from these clubs and indicate the year when they joined the Football League?

Could you also fill the following list, and say when these players leaved Vale of Leven to play in professional football sides in England?

J Wilson (from VALE OF LEVEN to BLACKBURN ROVERS)
John Forbes (1888-89 from Vale of Leven to Blackburn Rovers)
Andrew Whitelaw (From VALE OF LEVEN to NOTTS COUNTY)
John Murray (From VALE OF LEVEN to BLACKBURN ROVERS)
James Cowan (From VALE OF LEVEN TO ASTON VILLA)
D Paton (From VALE OF LEVEN to BOLTON WANDERERS)
F Dyer (From VALE OF LEVEN to BOLTON WANDERERS)
J Baird (From VALE OF LEVEN to BOLTON WANDERERS)
J McLachlan (From VALE OF LEVEN to BOLTON WANDERERS)
O Rankin (From VALE OF LEVEN to BOLTON WANDERERS)
James Paton (From VALE OF LEVEN to BOLTON WANDERERS)
Daniel Bruce (From VALE OF LEVEN to NOTTS COUNTY)
John Cowan (From VALE OF LEVEN to....)

David, I know that these are not a single question, but I'd dare to say that all of us could learn a lot from your answer. Thank you very much.

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Re: Dumbartonshire star players to play professional footbal

Post by Scottish » Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:32 pm

Carlucci wrote:David, I know that these are not a single question, but I'd dare to say that all of us could learn a lot from your answer. Thank you very much.
Including me! Ex-Vale of Leven players are not my strong point.

Yes, the SFA banned professionals from playing for Scotland even though they were happy to play internationals against teams containing professional players. I don't think the ban started in 1885 - Andrew Ward in 'Scotland The Team' gives it as 1890-91 - but it clearly adversely affected results. When professionalism was legalised in Scotland in 1893 the SFA voted to consider Scottish-based pros only for the national team. As you rightly say that continued until 1896.

I can give SOME of the players you request

J Wilson - I can't find any J Wilson with Blackburn during this time and the only likely one - James Wilson - doesn't appear to have had any other clubs.
Forbes November 1889
Whitelaw close season 1891
Murray went to Sunderland 1890 then Blackburn 1892
Cowan 1887
(Daniel) Paton 1890 'briefly' according to Lamming
Dyer - made one appearance for Bolton in 1888-89
Baird - can't find any Bolton player of that name though there was a John Baird went from VoL to Aston Villa in 1888 (no appearances) then to Kidderminster Olympic, Kidderminster Harriers then back to Villa in 1891. He joined Leicester Fosse (now City) in 1895 then Clyde and Vale of Leven again.
McLachlan - I can't find anyone of this name with Bolton though there was a Jimmy McLachlan left VoL for Derby County in 1890
Rankin - I can't find anyone of this name with Bolton or anyone with this name and initial anywhere
James Paton 1890
Bruce to Rangers 1891, Notts County October 1892
John Cowan - to Preston North End 1892

Carlucci
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Dumbartonshire star players to play proffesional football

Post by Carlucci » Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:53 pm

Sorry for the mistakes, David. But I've taken it out from John Weir's book
"The Boys from Leven's winding shore".

Could any of you also add the most important names that joined the Football League from Renton & Dumbarton? I can think of Andrew Hannah , who joined Liverpool in 1892.

But who is the first Scotsman that played professional football in England , before and after professionalism was legal?
Is it maybe Fergie Suter (who came from Scotland to Darwen for the 1879-80 season, and then to Blackburn Rovers) or Hugh McIntyre (from Rangers to Blackburn Rovers)?. Thanks. Cheers

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Re: Dumbartonshire star players to play proffesional footbal

Post by Cinneide » Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:20 pm

Carlucci wrote:But who is the first Scotsman that played professional football in England , before and after professionalism was legal?
Is it maybe Fergie Suter (who came from Scotland to Darwen for the 1879-80 season, and then to Blackburn Rovers) or Hugh McIntyre (from Rangers to Blackburn Rovers)?. Thanks. Cheers
Coincidentally, I was looking at the Daily Record from January/February 1939 and there was an article about the first Scot to go to England and play professional.

Unfortunately I didn't take much notice of it, and I won't have time to go back to it any time soon. I'm fairly sure neither Suter nor McIntyre were named.
[url=http://www.PTEarlyYears.net/]Partick Thistle - The Early Years - A Club History Online[/url]

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Post by Scottish » Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:46 pm

Fergus Suter has certainly been described in several reference books as the first to go south as a professional in 1879 even though this was six years before professionalism was legalised in England.

I'm somewhat wary or relying on Wikipedia given that very obvious errors are made about players I know something of so who knows how many they make about those from the distant past but the Wiki article on Suter gives a good link to this story from the Lancs Evening Telegraph

Darwen FC's website says "Having set up headquarters at Barley Bank in 1878 Darwen signed Fergus Suter and James Love from Partick Thistle, these two being the first of an influx of Scottish players into English Football and the first “paid professionals” in the game."

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Post by Cinneide » Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:54 pm

Suter and Love were signed from Partick FC not Partick Thistle FC.
[url=http://www.PTEarlyYears.net/]Partick Thistle - The Early Years - A Club History Online[/url]

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