Junior clubs in the Scottish Cup

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Junior clubs in the Scottish Cup

Post by LLD » Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:45 pm

With Pollok, Linlithgow, Culter and (presumably) Kelty Hearts all going into next season's revamped Scottish Cup first round, I was wondering how many current junior clubs have played in the tournament in the past?

Off the top of my head I thought of - Girvan, Arthurlie, Clydebank, Royal Albert, Penicuik Athletic and Vale of Leven (dubious).

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Post by Scottish » Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:13 pm

Given that there was rarely a seamless transition from senior to junior or vice-versa it's difficult to say for certain which of today's junior sides are 'legitimate' successors of senior teams. But taking into account years of formation, grounds played at and whether or not a club represented a community (i.e. they were/are the sole/main club in their locality), I would estimate that a fair few junior teams could claim some Scottish Cup previous. For instance:

Armadale, Arthurlie, Bathgate, Beith, Bo'ness, Broxburn, Clydebank, Girvan, Hurlford, Penicuik, Royal Albert, Vale of Leven.

That's before even considering clubs from the 1880s/early 1890s when there was still a considerable crossover and names like Petershill & Bonnyrigg Rose appeared in the Scottish Cup. Are they the same clubs as today?

There's also a category where I think it's fairly obvious that the junior team existing today is definitely NOT the successor to the one-time senior team and in fact may have even been in opposition to them. Into this category come clubs like Johnstone Burgh, Kilbirnie Ladeside & Port Glasgow Juniors.

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Post by BMCCOLL » Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:11 pm

I would say the following

Blantyre Victoria formed 1889, Scottish Cup 1895-1899
Junior 1889-1895, Senior 1895-1899, Juvenile 1900-1901, Junior 1901-

There is a gap from 1899-1900 (therefore possibly a new club?)


Bonnyrigg Rose Athletic formed 1889, Scottish Cup 1890-1897
(merger of Bonnyrigg Athletic and Bonnyrigg Rose)
Junior 1889-90, Senior 1890-1897, Junior 1897-


Girvan formed 1944, Scottish Cup 1946-47, 1953-
Girvan Amateurs 1944-1978, Juniors 2005-


Glasgow Perthshire formed 1890, Scottish Cup 1892-93
Junior 1890-1892, Senior 1892-93, Junior 1893-


Lugar Boswell Thistle formed 1876, Scottish Cup 1881-1893, 1895-1902
known as Lugar Boswell 1876-1945, senior 1876-1910 Junior 1910-


Maryhill formed 1884, Scottish Cup 1888-1894
Juniors 1884-1888, Senior 1888-1894, Junior 1894-


Royal Albert formed 1878, Scottish Cup 1880-1928
Senior 1878-1928, Junior 1928-


Wishaw formed 1885, Scottish Cup 1888-1920
Juniors 1885-1888, Seniors 1888-1920, Juniors 1920-

As for David's suggestions
Armadale maybe, but the only connection may be the use of the ground
Arthurlie the senior club disbanded and there was an amateur intermediate club before the present Juniors were formed
Bathgate Thistle there was a five year gap between the seniors and juniors
Beith possible - the juniors were formed immediately after the Seniors disbanded
Bo'ness United merger so they are a new club
Broxburn Athletic only formed in 1948, 12 years after the senior Broxburn United disbanded
Clydebank new club - the old Clydebank now play in Airdrie (ouch!)
Hurlford disbanded in 1923, although a junior club operated for a couple more years, the present United only saw the light of day in 1938
Penicuik Athletic this one was formed 11 years after the old one disbanded so depends on how you view what constitutes a new and a continuance of an old club
Vale of Leven formed in 1939 so couldn't take part in the Scottish Cup as it wasn't played.

As David states, some clubs could view themselves as continuations of the senior sides, however in 99% of the cases, this doesn't make them so.

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Post by LLD » Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:04 pm

I am sure Penicuik Athletic retained SJFA membership as 'non playing members' in the eleven year period before they recently reappeared.

Equally sure that Airdrie United sold the Clydebank name back to Clydebank supporters, so they might be the same legal entity as the former senior team, albeit with a years break from playing matches.

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Post by BMCCOLL » Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:37 pm

On the non playing membership (is this confirmed?) for Penicuik, how many other 'defunct' clubs are biding their time waiting for a come-back?

As for Clydebank, I don't see them being the same club as the former senior outfit. Its a bit of a mess, but I reckon the present Airdrie Utd ARE Clydebank with a name change and relocation. If so the new Clydebank Juniors must be seen as different.

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Post by LLD » Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:18 pm

I think Bonnybridge in the east and Baillieston in the west are both current examples of 'non playing members' of the SJFA.

I assume that they would need to pay a subscription to maintain membership.

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Post by Scottish » Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:32 am

Brian, with regard to your observations on my observations:

One of the clubs involved in the Bo'ness United merger was the old senior club who had participated in the Scottish Cup. Same ground, same supporters (though substantially more of them initially at least). I don't know about officials & players.

Even if we accept that the new Airdrie are the old Clydebank ( and I for one, don't) then the old junior Clydebank became the second senior Clydebank and that club played in both senior and junior Scottish Cups

I don;t thik there can be anything hard and fast in this which is why I said "taking into account years of formation, grounds played at and whether or not a club represented a community (i.e. they were/are the sole/main club in their locality), I would estimate that a fair few junior teams could claim some Scottish Cup previous."

That's why I included several teams whose grounds have seen both junior & senior cup ties, both of which would have been watched by essentially the same support. Vale of Leven is a case in point. There's a clear line from Vale of Leven FC through to Vale of Leven juniors via Vale OCOBA which doesn't exist for example in Port Glasgow's case.

The fans who watched the likes of Arthurlie & Armadale in the 1930s in the juniors were the same ones who watched Scottish League football at the same grounds just a few years earlier.

These connections are accepted in the Junior centenary history in which Armadale & Bo'ness for example are both stated to be former Scottish League clubs even though their foundation year as juniors is stated.

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Post by BMCCOLL » Sun Jun 03, 2007 12:15 pm

I agree with you David in respect that some present Juniors have links to previous Senior clubs. However I feel that most of them are tenuous. Does playing on the same ground and admittedly having the same supporters, actually make them the same club?
It appears from the records that it was easier for clubs to step up the grades but harder to make the return journey. Did the SJFA unofficially frown upon this therefore forcing senior clubs to disband and reform as juniors?

Burnie_man

Post by Burnie_man » Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:20 pm

A few points to pick-up on here.

2007-08: I'm lead to believe that only 3 Junior clubs will qulify for the Scottish Cup, Kelty Hearts do not qualify as Junior Cup runners-up.

Senior/Juniors clubs......

Bo'ness United FC were founded immediately after WWII with the merger of Bo'ness Cadora and Bo'ness FC. Bo'ness Cadora were a succesful pre-war Junior club that stepped up from Juvenile status in 1932. Bo'ness FC we know about. I think we can say at least part of Bo'ness United's history should include Bo'ness FC.

Armadale Thistle. Not connected in anyway to Armadale FC. They were founded in 1936, whereas Armadale FC went defunct in 1933 (with the company being dissolved in 1935). OK same ground is/was used for both clubs but I can't see anyway the two clubs can be connected other than through a few officials and perhaps players.

Bathgate Thistle. According to the Bathgate Thistle history published in 1992, they are not connected to Bathgate FC.

Broxburn United. They dropped down to the Juniors for a couple of season's and eventually withdrew from the East of Scotland Junior League - Western Division during season 1928-29. That season they played with another Junior club called Broxburn Athletic, who folded in 1930. There was no other Junior football clubs in Broxburn until Broxburn Athletic MkII were formed in 1948. So again, no connections with senior football there.

I therefore would say that as far as West Lothian Junior clubs are concerned, Bo'ness United have a bit of a link to the Senior game, at best Armadale Thistle have a very very tenous link, and Bathgate Thistle and Broxburn Athletic have no link whatsoever.

Penicuik Athletic - of the clubs on the East Region Juniors, they probably lay claim to the strongest link, having competed in the Seniors during the 1930's having been founded in 1930, they remained Senior after the war (winning the Border Cup against Selkirk in 1949) until 1950 where it appears they made the transition to Junior football due to financial problems. Financial problems cost them dear again in the late 80's when their Eastfield Park ground was used a security against their (failing) Social Club, the ground was subsequently lost and their last season in the Juniors was 1990/91. They retained their SJFA membership for a couple of years but they also kept their lottery going in the hope of one day obtaining a new ground, which they did and returned in season 2002/03. The same club as the 1991 version? I would say so.

Non Playing memberships - They don't last forever! Penicuik Athletic kept their membership for a couple of season after 1991 but they were not allowed to continue to renew as they could not show when they would make a return to playing. Bonnybridge are dead and buried. Not sure about Ballieston, I think they still have a "committee" which continues to try and secure land for a new ground, but I dont believe they are still members of the SJFA, again because they cant show when they will make a return (it doesn't really matter anyway, as long as a club has a complaint ground they will be accepted as members!)

Burnie_man

Post by Burnie_man » Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:12 pm

Burnie_man wrote:Armadale Thistle. Not connected in anyway to Armadale FC. They were founded in 1936, whereas Armadale FC went defunct in 1933 (with the company being dissolved in 1935). OK same ground is/was used for both clubs but I can't see anyway the two clubs can be connected other than through a few officials and perhaps players.
Just to labour the point, I checked a copy of "The 'Dale" A history of Armadale Football Club by Stewart Barrowman (if anyone has a spare copy, let me know!!!) and it states that when Armadale FC folded in 1933, the following season Armadale Juveniles were formed to keep football going in the town but only 2 committee men from the old Armadale FC were involved with the club (neither of them holding office bearing positions), the rest were mostly workmates from the foundry in the town. Obviously there were no players from Armadale FC involved either.

The club had a succesful two year stint in the Juveniles, including two Scottish Juvenile Cup semi-final appearances, before stepping upto the Juniors for season 1935-36 and changing their name to Armadale Thistle (apparently Bo'ness FC tried to persude them to go Senior and join them in the Scottish Combination)

Therefore I'm quite happy that Armadale Thistle FC have no connection at all with Armadale FC, other than they both played, and Thistle continue to play, at Volunteer Park.

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Post by BMCCOLL » Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:24 pm

Queen's Park Juniors played in the Scottish Cup during the 1870s, were they a bona fide Junior club, albeit before the grade was officially recognized?

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Post by Scottish » Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:49 am

Naturally the Juniors are getting all the attention but there is a further addition to the entries this year. Golspie Sutherland will take part in the Scottish Cup proper for the first time after failing to make it via the Qualifying Cup in over forty attempts.

The new format also means a return to the Scottish Cup proper for many other sides who failed consistently in the Qualifying Cup, notably South of Scotland clubs. Newton Stewart will take part for the first time since the competition last disposed of the qualifiers in 1956-57 and Wigtown & Bladnoch are in for the first time since losing 9-0 to Dunfermline in 1962. Former SoSL and now junior outfit Girvan make their first appearance for 30 years.

Longest 'excluded' of the Highland clubs are Fort William and Nairn County who will both make their first appearances since 1985-86.

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Post by LEATHERSTOCKING » Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:08 am

Queen`s Park Juniors played on the same pitch on the Queen`s Park Recreation Ground that Queen`s Park had vacated in 1873 (opposite what is now Langside College) to moved across Cathcart Road to 1st Hampden Park (where Florida Crescent is now). The terms "senior" & "junior" were terms then similar to "major" & "minor" which might be used now. QP Juniors had no direct affiliation with The Spiders although it was agreed that members of the Juniors could attend matches @ Hampden free of charge.

Burnie_man

Post by Burnie_man » Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:44 pm

Good draw for Pollok, Linlithgow Rose and Culter, all should progress into the second round with relative ease. Tougher for Girvan though, but not impossible.

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Post by Scottish » Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:07 am

Just about every media outlet said this was the first time SJFA members had entered the Scottish Cup, forgetting the Girvan anomaly entirely. Web coverage has been patchy. Two ties have had conflicting scores. Linlithgow won 6-0 according to the BBC website but only 4-0 on their own Ceefax service. Similarly, Nairn won 3-0 on the website and 4-1 on Ceefax. Without match reports, line-ups and scorers it's impossible to know which is correct. I am taking the results as given on the SFA website for my own records.

No attendances given either as far as I can see. In fact this season so far has been a reversion to the bad old days of giving estimated attendances at a number of games. Celtic are chief offenders with their new computerised system unable in some games to give an accurate figure and in one match - v Spartak Moscow - recording a figure 5,000 in excess of the number of seats.

Games at Hamilton, Dumbarton, Dunfermline & Cowdenbeath have seen incorrect figures appear in some papers and Clyde and Livingston still often issue estimates despite having modern grounds and (presumably) counting systems.

A few snippets concerning the 1st round Scottish Cup ties.

Burntisland Shipyard’s win at Wigtown was their first ever away Scottish Cup victory. Wigtown & Bladnoch have never won a home tie. Dalbeattie Star also won away for the first time.

Like Culter, Pollok & Linlithgow Rose, Saturday was also the first ever Scottish Cup tie proper for Golspie Sutherland.

Vale of Leithen’s win was their first in the Scottish Cup for thirty seasons. In that time they have drawn two and lost twelve.

Rothes have never so much as drawn a Scottish Cup tie with nine losses since they first entered in 1954-55.

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