Scotland! Scotland! Complete Who's Who from 1946

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Sat31March1928
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Scotland! Scotland! Complete Who's Who from 1946

Post by Sat31March1928 » Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:25 pm

Bought this yesterday in Waterstone's in Edinburgh.

Essentially an update of Douglas Lamming's 1986 book.

The book is arranged chronologically by Player from 1946 right up to the game versus Ukraine.

Covers 480 players in 497 pages. So roughly 1 page per player.

Each entry is structured

Name

Position

Born includes full name and place of Birth.

Died

Height

Weight

Clubs - Just names of clubs played for. Doesn't directly indicate dates or cost.

Scotland Caps - total
Scotland Goals - total
List of games played in by Year with result. No venue or competition details. Does note where a player has scored in that game but no distiguishing of a 'penalty' from an open 'play goal'

Textual summary of player career. This contains a 'pen picture'. It does detail the cost of some transfers and career highlights.

About 100 pictures of players in the book.

Alphabetic index at the back.

Minimal Statistical section.

Top 20 caps and Top 20 goalscorers from 1946.

Overall a good reference guide to the players since 1946. I would recommend it as book to buy for you reference library. I'll be using it as a source for updating my player details for the webiste.

Some quibbles though that I've picked up over a quick read through.

Charlie Cox still credited with that cap in 1948.

No mentions of 'red cards'.

Not all relatives are mentioned e.g. No mention that Alfie Conn Jnr being son of senior. Andy Gray is son of Frankie.

Some players names are slightly 'odd' e.g. 'Rob' rather than 'Robbie' Neilson.

A few player descriptions are a bit trite. Tommy Boyd described as 'One of the game's finest full backs'. I didn't know he played rugby.

'Elvis' Pressley's entry does not mention that he now holds the Hearts Cap record.

It could have done with a few more statistics at the back e.g. Caps by club since 1946 say, A summary line for each player .
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Post by Scottish » Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:11 pm

I saw this in Borders in Glasgow recently. I only had a quick skim through as I was carrying way too much luggage to add anything else. Am I right in thinking there's no acknowledgment of Douglas Lamming's book?

If so this suggests either entirely original research or an appalling omission. Without having a chance to compare the two side by side I don't know which.

Red cards etc are on the SFA website which of course has the correct details re Charlie Cox, Eddie Turnbull etc. Personally I think the SFA site is the best source for updating. Not just because it's the official site but as an online resource any errors there can be amended easily so it will always be more up to date than any print book.

For caps by club see Richard Keir's 'Scotland The Complete International Record' published by Breedon which runs up to the end of season 2000-2001.

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Post by Sat31March1928 » Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:13 pm

No credits given to any other sources at all.

The bios have more detail than Douglas Lammings book.

As to the red cards. It mentions in the intro that Billy Steel was the first player sent off stating the game. Then in his bio repeats this fact but doesn't identify the game.

I'm now annoyed by the chronological order, having to go to the index then to the player page.

btw is by Dean P. Hayes at 14:99 from Mercat press.
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Post by Scottish » Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:06 pm

If Dean Philip Hayes is the same as Dean Hayes then he's extremely prolific with around 100 titles on Amazon, including four between Aug-Oct this year! I struggle to produce two books in a year.

There are a couple of good reviews on Amazon from the Hibs official site and from Andy Mitchell. However I find it difficult to believe that a work of this nature can be produced from scratch (and indeed it would be unnecessary given the existence of previous works from the likes of Lamming, Keir and Andrew Ward) and the lack of acknowledgments really puts me off. It's only right and proper to acknowledge sources and inspirations. Not having read any of his other books I don't know if this is an accidental omission or not. I hope it is because I really don't think it's possible to produce a book like this without having read Douglas Lamming's at least.

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Post by BMCCOLL » Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:56 pm

I bought Lamming's original work when it was published by the AFS in 1982, and am still blown away by its detail. I do hope that Dean Philip Hayes rectifies his omision in any re-issue.

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Post by Scottish » Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:20 pm

BMCCOLL wrote:I bought Lamming's original work when it was published by the AFS in 1982.
Wasn't that the one in four parts? I made the mistake of lending one part out. Needless to say that was the last I saw of it. OTOH it might have been a good thing. 1986 wasn't a particularly good year for me and I might not have forked out for the single-volume edition if I still had all four AFS ones intact.

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Post by BMCCOLL » Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:14 pm

It was. I also got the part works detailing all the SFL and League Cup results. Alas I feel the AFS is now a former shadow of its pioneering self.

Burnie_man

Post by Burnie_man » Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:22 pm

Does the book replicate the error in Douglas Lammings re Bobby Walker playing for Dalry Primrose in AYRSHIRE and not Edinburgh.

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Post by Sat31March1928 » Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:01 pm

Burnie_man wrote:Does the book replicate the error in Douglas Lammings re Bobby Walker playing for Dalry Primrose in AYRSHIRE and not Edinburgh.
It's only from 1946 onwards. So no BW not in it.

I am getting more annoyed with the 'chronological' order in it.

Look at the index then find the page.

I'll check the details of the Hearts players against mine to measure the quality of the data.
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Post by ScottishFA » Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:15 pm

scottish wrote: There are a couple of good reviews on Amazon from the Hibs official site and from Andy Mitchell.
It was only on reading this post that I realised my name had been put against a review on Amazon. However, in an email to the publishers I gave my comments with lengthy list of reservations - similar to those expressed above. They appear to have taken some of my words out of context, and without my permission, and used them on the Amazon page (and who knows in what other publicity material).

So, I've asked Amazon to remove the review, and asked the publishers to desist.

For the record, these are my comments to Mercat Press at the end of November, based on an initial reading:

The player on page 34, Charlie Cox, never played for Scotland. This is a common error, as he is confused with Sammy Cox (page 41) who actually has 25 caps. This has been rectified in other histories.

There are two matches missing from the player records - 1946 v Belgium and Switzerland. While some sources consider these games 'unofficial' they are certainly included in the international records of Scotland and our opponents.

It would have been very useful, and not taking up many additional pages, to include biogs of the Scotland managers, and also a simple list of all the international matches in date order (the exact date of matches is not given anywhere).

There are no acknowledgements or sources credited - but there are obvious links to previous works such as Doug Lamming's Who's Who of Scotland Internationals, and various club books. This means that I cannot know if Dean Hayes has done his own research, or simply copied previous reference books (and repeated some of the mistakes).

The choice of photos is strange, in some cases. None more so than Ally McCoist, the greatest post-war goalscorer with Scotland and Rangers, whose photo is from a disastrous spell at Sunderland.

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