A tale of two K/Chrises

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Cinneide
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Post by Cinneide » Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:16 pm

lbb wrote:A colleague has just reminded me of James McFadden's drunken behaviour on an international trip in 2002 which resulted in him missing the flight home. We don't think he received any censure from the SFA for this.
Without defending him, McFadden's behaviour was after the last game of the season (I think?) rather than a few days before an important match.
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Skyline Drifter
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Post by Skyline Drifter » Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:30 pm

lbb wrote:
Sat31March1928 wrote:Has there ever been a less suitable competent man in the post?
Er, all his predecessors?
Behave yourself!

David Taylor is a very good administrator and very good at his job. His one notable mistake was the appointment of Vogts. Smith is a horse's backside who has stumbled from one cock up to another since his appointment with some particular highlights being:
- Claiming he would ensure divers were booked post match on tv evidence before being told by UEFA he could do no such thing.
- Stating categorically that he would stop the situation of Scottish Cup runners up getting into Europe before UEFA also told him that wasn't his decision to make and he couldn't do it.
- Suggesting a week before the game that he might move the Scottish Cup Final to a midweek date to help Rangers out.
- etc

That said, I tend to agree the issue falls under Burley's remit, not Smith's and it was for Burley to decide, at least until Thursday. Perhaps in light of the pair's behaviour on Wednesday night on the bench the SFA should have gotten involved though.

Skyline Drifter
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Post by Skyline Drifter » Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:31 pm

lbb wrote:I have to say, though, I would have expected Smith/SFA to have made some announcement about both players international futures on Thursday and certainly by today. I wonder if they thought that banning them altogether would have been too heavy-handed and they weren't anticipating Rangers' reaction today. Sounds like something that could have been clarified with a simple phone call, though.
Well you had to wait but when it came the announcement was somewhat brutal!
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Post by bobby s » Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:05 pm

lbb wrote:He appears to have acted decisively initially and then backed down when confronted with a delegation. Never a good sign.
Alan Rough made the point that if all 7 players had been sent home, the remaining players also would have been penalised by Scotland fielding a weakened team that could well have lost the game and ending our qualification chances. From that aspect you could understand why Burley tried to ensure that 3 points were gained out of the mess. He did that, but the media doesn't seem on side. Maybe he recognises them for the wonkers they are.

Burley is on a perpetual kicking now, should he stay? Probably not. Who could replace him? Nobody that could do a better job.
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Gunboat Briggs
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Post by Gunboat Briggs » Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:02 pm

Ferguson has had this coming a long while.... ever since he came up smelling of roses last time(!) he got stripped of the Rangers captaincy, when he undermined Le Guen and got away with it big time.

Now he has provided both club and country with the perfect excuse to deal with the embarrassment of ditching the services of one's captain at a time when his ( limited to begin with) talents are waning and I don't think many will have a shred of sympathy for the jumped up little ned.

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Post by bobby s » Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:28 pm

I do suspect PLG will be having a smirk tonight, if indeed he is bothered at all.
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lbb
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Post by lbb » Sat Apr 04, 2009 6:33 pm

Skyline Drifter wrote: David Taylor is a very good administrator and very good at his job. His one notable mistake was the appointment of Vogts.
Which was a pretty big cock-up which took him a long time to recognise was wrong. And then there was the laughable Euro 2008 bid with Ireland which was always going to be a non-starter but for which he seemed to devote considerable time and energy. I daresay if I wanted to I could find public utterances of Taylor's that proved stupid or unwise. I simply make the point that Smith is hardly following in a proud succession of highly talented people - Taylor, Ernie Walker, Jim Farry, etc.
Skyline Drifter wrote:That said, I tend to agree the issue falls under Burley's remit, not Smith's and it was for Burley to decide, at least until Thursday. Perhaps in light of the pair's behaviour on Wednesday night on the bench the SFA should have gotten involved though.
I think McGregor, certainly, and Ferguson, possibly, would not have been picked again and that's how Burley intended to handle it, in my view. Let the dust settle and then deliver your revenge later. Rangers' action forced the SFA into a statement it wasn't going to make.

I think where Smith could face criticism is there no clear and consistent policy by the SFA but then he could say he didn't inherit one. I mentioned James McFadden and Cinneide is right that he was young and it was end of the season but he came back to play for Scotland without any recriminations. There may have been a feeling this could be dealt with in a similar fashion or, as I say, Burley would make his own decision come the next time he selects a squad.

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Post by lbb » Sat Apr 04, 2009 6:43 pm

bobby s wrote:Alan Rough made the point that if all 7 players had been sent home, the remaining players also would have been penalised by Scotland fielding a weakened team that could well have lost the game and ending our qualification chances. From that aspect you could understand why Burley tried to ensure that 3 points were gained out of the mess. He did that, but the media doesn't seem on side. Maybe he recognises them for the wonkers they are.
There probably was a pragmatic view that we needed to take something positive from the week. I wouldn't blame Burley if he took that view.

There is the question now of what to do about the other 5 players. Should they escape censure completely? We all know Hutton and Brown won't be banned from playing. It's one thing binning your No. 2 goalkeeper and a midfielder who looks to be effectively finished in top-flight football but another to bin two key players and, on the evidence of Wednesday, Scotland certainly couldn't do without Hutton.
bobby s wrote:Burley is on a perpetual kicking now, should he stay? Probably not. Who could replace him? Nobody that could do a better job.
You just need to look at what happened to decent people like Jozef Venglos ('Doctor Who?') and Paul Le Guen ('Paul Le Goon', the chop-o-meter guillotine in The Sun) to know that the Scottish press can be as vicious as they come and a good number of them won't rest until they get Burley's head. They see themselves as part of the game, as important as players and managers, and this is part of the problem.

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Post by lbb » Sat Apr 04, 2009 6:54 pm

Gunboat Briggs wrote:Ferguson has had this coming a long while.... ever since he came up smelling of roses last time(!) he got stripped of the Rangers captaincy, when he undermined Le Guen and got away with it big time.

Now he has provided both club and country with the perfect excuse to deal with the embarrassment of ditching the services of one's captain at a time when his ( limited to begin with) talents are waning and I don't think many will have a shred of sympathy for the jumped up little ned.
Barry Ferguson is comfortably the best player Scotland has produced in the last 20 years. Even at his peak, though, he was never a wholly popular player with the Scotland support, for whatever reason, so I doubt too many of them will feel sorry for him. I don't think that should allow some revisionism to come in about his true abilities, if not today then 5 or 10 years ago.

His career seems to have declined since his move to Blackburn and his return to Rangers was a monumental mistake. He appears to be responsible for all of Rangers' woes in the last four years and as a player who played in the good times at Ibrox, he's a frustrating constant reminder of how things used to be. It's not the ones who leave that get the abuse, it's the ones that stay. And I say that as someone who wanted Ferguson sold when Le Guen left and think his time at Rangers, even before this incident, should come to an end. I just think the vilification of the player can go too far. Tartan Army blowhard Hamish Husband compares Barry Ferguson to Fred Goodwin. I hope this doesn't end with Ferguson's home been attacked. I'm sure Hamish would apologise if that happened.

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Post by Skyline Drifter » Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:00 pm

lbb wrote:
Skyline Drifter wrote: David Taylor is a very good administrator and very good at his job. His one notable mistake was the appointment of Vogts.
Which was a pretty big cock-up which took him a long time to recognise was wrong. And then there was the laughable Euro 2008 bid with Ireland which was always going to be a non-starter but for which he seemed to devote considerable time and energy. I daresay if I wanted to I could find public utterances of Taylor's that proved stupid or unwise. I simply make the point that Smith is hardly following in a proud succession of highly talented people - Taylor, Ernie Walker, Jim Farry, etc.
You can make that point if you wish but I think it's ridiculous.

All three of those were fine football administrators who were excellent at their jobs and by and large any vilification they got was for playing the rules with a straight bat not fast and loose.

After years of running with an administrative appointment to what is after all predominantly an administrative position and thereby appointing, particularly in the case of Farry and Walker, media unfriendly types the SFA opted to go the other way last time in replacing Taylor (for whom incidentally the vilification for appointing Vogts went over the score but that's another debate). They went for a media friendly "personality" who in theory at least was capable of handling the desk job part of the role too. Unfortunately in my opinion this has completely backfired as despite Smith's cronies giving a much easier ride than they have the same three mentioned above, he's lurched from one cock up to another, regularly opening his mouth to promise action he simply cannot deliver and doesn't have in his remit. The media may not spin it that way but history will not smile favourably on the Smith reign.
Last edited by Skyline Drifter on Sat Apr 04, 2009 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Skyline Drifter » Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:05 pm

lbb wrote:
Gunboat Briggs wrote:Ferguson has had this coming a long while.... ever since he came up smelling of roses last time(!) he got stripped of the Rangers captaincy, when he undermined Le Guen and got away with it big time.

Now he has provided both club and country with the perfect excuse to deal with the embarrassment of ditching the services of one's captain at a time when his ( limited to begin with) talents are waning and I don't think many will have a shred of sympathy for the jumped up little ned.
Barry Ferguson is comfortably the best player Scotland has produced in the last 20 years. Even at his peak, though, he was never a wholly popular player with the Scotland support, for whatever reason, so I doubt too many of them will feel sorry for him. I don't think that should allow some revisionism to come in about his true abilities, if not today then 5 or 10 years ago.

His career seems to have declined since his move to Blackburn and his return to Rangers was a monumental mistake. He appears to be responsible for all of Rangers' woes in the last four years and as a player who played in the good times at Ibrox, he's a frustrating constant reminder of how things used to be. It's not the ones who leave that get the abuse, it's the ones that stay. And I say that as someone who wanted Ferguson sold when Le Guen left and think his time at Rangers, even before this incident, should come to an end. I just think the vilification of the player can go too far. Tartan Army blowhard Hamish Husband compares Barry Ferguson to Fred Goodwin. I hope this doesn't end with Ferguson's home been attacked. I'm sure Hamish would apologise if that happened.
That on the other hand I agree with entirely. Ferguson was at a time as good a player as Scotland produced in a decade and the one genuine option of a Scot in a UK select without it being tokenism. He deserves credit for continuing to play for Scotland when it would have been easy to step aside at times in the past too and the 'Tartan Army' who never took him to their hearts have been far too critical of him in the past, as they are beginning to be too with Darren Fletcher. Possession football and not wasting the ball seems to be a crime in many tartan clad eyes.

That said, he went far too far this time and no longer the clear class amongst his peers he deserves no great sympathy now. Ta ta Barry, don't let the door hit you and your over-rated goalkeeping colleague on the backside on the way out.

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Post by lbb » Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:02 am

Skyline Drifter wrote: You can make that point if you wish but I think it's ridiculous.

All three of those were fine football administrators who were excellent at their jobs and by and large any vilification they got was for playing the rules with a straight bat not fast and loose.
That’s a curious statement to make about people like Jim Farry who was eventually sacked for stalling, either through incompetence or malice, the registration of Celtic striker Jorge Cadete causing him to miss a Scottish Cup semi-final. Farry was also found, in the case of Duncan Ferguson, to have ’acted outside his powers’ by Lord Justice MacFadyen at the Court of Session in Edinburgh who then quashed the 12-game ban Farry and the SFA had handed down to Ferguson before he appeared in a criminal court. Ernie Walker was the man who claimed the SFA did not use video evidence to punish players or managers and then proceeded to ban Graeme Souness from the touchline for two years solely on the basis of video evidence provided by STV. Walker also fined Rangers £12,000 for fielding a weakened team in a tournament they won. David Taylor seemed to devote his time at the SFA to hiring and then defending Berti Vogts and pursuing a pipe dream in trying to host the European Championships with Ireland - at considerable embarrassment to himself and the country. And that's when he wasn't dressing up as Saddam Hussein.

I just don't see that these guys have i) a great reputation in this country or ii) did anything amazing for Smith to measure himself against. Walker and Farry, in particular, presided over the decline of the game in this country and, aside from Walker's much-mocked review (which naturally occurred five years after he left office :? ), they did little or nothing to address our decline.

I'm also surprised at your statement that Smith has had an easy time from his former media colleagues. I'd say the opposite is true. The last time I heard Smith on 'Sportsound' you could hear the venom from James Traynor and Richard Gordon. Jealousy is a terrible thing and there are many in Scottish media circles who didn't like Smith as a pundit and are consumed with bitterness at his present position. They would relish any opportunity to bring him down.

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Post by lbb » Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:07 am

Skyline Drifter wrote: That on the other hand I agree with entirely. Ferguson was at a time as good a player as Scotland produced in a decade and the one genuine option of a Scot in a UK select without it being tokenism. He deserves credit for continuing to play for Scotland when it would have been easy to step aside at times in the past too and the 'Tartan Army' who never took him to their hearts have been far too critical of him in the past, as they are beginning to be too with Darren Fletcher. Possession football and not wasting the ball seems to be a crime in many tartan clad eyes.
Indeed, going further back, Graeme Souness was never popular with the Scottish support which broadly regarded him as a 'poser' in midfield - at a time when he was regularly lifting the European Cup over his head. Maybe the Tartan Army just don't know very much about football and never did. :wink:
Skyline Drifter wrote:That said, he went far too far this time and no longer the clear class amongst his peers he deserves no great sympathy now. Ta ta Barry, don't let the door hit you and your over-rated goalkeeping colleague on the backside on the way out.
On club form, Ferguson shouldn't have been picked at all, it has to be said.

I wonder if yesterday's revelations about a media cover-up involving Scott Brown and the Daily Record will force the SFA into further action. It would look highly suspicious if they did not respond.

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Post by Skyline Drifter » Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:47 am

lbb wrote:I wonder if yesterday's revelations about a media cover-up involving Scott Brown and the Daily Record will force the SFA into further action. It would look highly suspicious if they did not respond.
What have I missed?

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Post by Insertnamehere » Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:57 am

Skyline Drifter wrote:
lbb wrote:I wonder if yesterday's revelations about a media cover-up involving Scott Brown and the Daily Record will force the SFA into further action. It would look highly suspicious if they did not respond.
What have I missed?
The News of the World stated that Jim Traynor leaked the story as Ferguson writes for the Sun, Browns involvement was covered up as hes Keith Jacksons mole at Celtic........... the usual Record verse Sun we did it first you got it wrong crap!

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