Germany 7 Brazil 1

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Re: Germany 7 Brazil 1

Post by Skyline Drifter » Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:26 pm

lbb wrote: The BBC had their South American football correspondent, Tim Vickery, post-match who put the German win into some context context. For those who didn't see it, a year ago, Oliver Bierhoff, the German general manager, had written off German chances of success in the World Cup - climate and travel being the main obstacles. Germany came through their three group games in tropical conditions before going through extra-time in the knockout stages and finally disposing of the two South American powerhouses in South America. Inexplicably, Vickery has been underused in this tournament when he has a great deal of knowledge to offer as his fleeting appearances confirm. It's difficult to see what we would have lost if Rio Ferdinand had been replaced with Vickery. Instead, Vickery gets 2 minutes and Ferdinand gets a bloody documentary.

For some reason, the line was pushed beforehand that Argentina and Messi had played well throughout and Messi just needed to win the Final to crown this amazing achievement. This was similar to 2010 when we were told by the media that everyone felt sorry for Ghana not reaching the semi-final when I don't actually know anyone who wouldn't have wanted their player to punch the ball off the line in the last minute too. Even if Argentina had been successful last night, it would not have been similar to the tournaments enjoyed by Pele and Maradona. Messi is a great at Barcelona but it's clear he had a largely forgettable tournament and he at least looked embarrassed going up to collect the Golden Ball trophy. Manuel Neuer had more completed passes (244) than Lionel Messi (242) in the tournament. Perhaps with Cristiano Ronaldo winning the Ballon d'Or, it had already been decided to give Messi this award as consolation.
Vickery is obviously highly knowledgeable and did okay last night but some of his camera appearances have been absolutely cringeworthy. He's clearly a radio man who is not at all comfortable on tv. The content is fine but the presentation needs a lot of work before he's going to be on a flagship studio panel. That said I agree about Ferdinand who had little to offer and was a surprising choice for a studio pundit for the final. They would have been much, much better to swap him and Seedorf around and have Seedorf in the studio and Ferdinand for the pointless little short analysis in the stadium slot. Seedorf has impressed me in this tournament. More of him please.

I was just about speechless when Messi got the Player of the Tournament award. He wasn't even the best player in Argentina's team (that was Mascherano and the much lamented Dimichelis and probably Di Maria outshone him too) and largely disappeared once the knock out stages began. It was a laughable call. There were at least half a dozen German's with a better case for it. It's not an award that should be given out on the night anyway. He just looked as if he'd rather be anywhere else but receiving it.

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Re: Germany 7 Brazil 1

Post by the hibLOG » Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:51 pm

Skyline Drifter wrote:Well obviously. Hence why lbb's original question said "ok, he hits it with his shoulder but if he hadn't and it had spun in by itself would it have counted"
:wink:
Oh aye *cough* ... <shuffles off making mental note to read things properly in future...>
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Re: Germany 7 Brazil 1

Post by the hibLOG » Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:00 pm

Skyline Drifter wrote:I was just about speechless when Messi got the Player of the Tournament award. He wasn't even the best player in Argentina's team (that was Mascherano and the much lamented Dimichelis and probably Di Maria outshone him too) and largely disappeared once the knock out stages began. It was a laughable call. There were at least half a dozen German's with a better case for it. It's not an award that should be given out on the night anyway. He just looked as if he'd rather be anywhere else but receiving it.
Agreed. It was like one of those sponsor's man of the match awards where the corporate box awards it to the glamorous star player they most want to be photographed with, not the ugly but gifted teuchter who has actually just run the past 90 minutes on the park.

Robben also surely deserved a good shout for player of the tournament, though I wouldn't dispute that his award for cheat of the tournament probably counted against him. When he wasn't winning penalties and free kicks unfairly he was also the most destructive attacking force on display for me.
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Re: Germany 7 Brazil 1

Post by Scottish » Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:11 pm

To take lbb’s point, yes I would agree that it’s highly unlikely for any South America team to win in Russia. Just as no European team had won anywhere in the American hemisphere prior to Sunday, a South American team has won just once in Europe and that was as far back as 1958.

Notwithstanding Germany’s achievement (and it was a magnificent one in many ways), it remains the case that overall South American sides are superior to European teams when the tournament is held on that continent. There were eight South American wins in head-to-heads and five European wins. Four of those five came from Germany & Holland. Even more surprising, I doubt if anyone would have predicted beforehand that Brazil – even accepting they were not as good as their predecessors – would have lost twice to European teams at home – let alone twice in succession.

I don’t think Messi had by any stretch of the imagination a bad World Cup. If four goals, a couple of assists and playing in a World Cup Final is bad then over 95% (at least) of the players in Brazil would have bitten your hand off to be as bad as that. But he definitely was NOT the best player there. As to who was, that’s a more difficult call. There were some outstanding players for sure but should the award be given to a player who exits in the quarter-finals as James Rodriguez did? By that I mean any player we didn’t get the chance to see up against the best in the competition. Many say Rodriguez was the player of the tournament but we never got the chance to see what he could do against Germany, Argentina or Holland – the top three teams in the competition.

Personally, I don’t think there was one player who stood head and shoulders above the rest. If pushed I’d say Javier Mascherano but I doubt if FIFA would opt for a defender. I think Maradona nailed it when he said Messi’s award was a marketing ploy. Messi himself clearly didn’t think he deserved it as you could observe from his demeanour at the time.

Tim Vickery? I’ve never heard his radio stuff but he’s a writer, not a TV man. That’s clear when contrasting his columns and match reports with his TV performances. But as the resident South American (and in particular Brazilian) “expert,” he had to appear on air. You could see how uncomfortable he was immediately after the end of the final when he was constantly referring to his written notes instead of speaking directly to camera. Some people can be trained up to become better camera performers. Gary Lineker is a good example. Nervous, hesitant, somewhat in awe of more experienced TV hands when he first started out in broadcasting, Lineker is now an established, consummate host. The difference being that Lineker was new to the whole business while Vickery has been writing about the game for over twenty years. That’s his forte and he will now go back to it. Conversely, I don’t believe for one minute that Lineker’s (or Hansen’s for that matter) newspaper columns are all carefully crafted by his own fair hand. Vickery, I should add, despite being the BBC's South American correspondent is a freelancer, not a BBC employee so it's hardly likely the Beeb would train him as a TV man. Apparently he has his own show in Brazil so it could be that he performs well in Portuguese and, being used to that, isn't accustomed to dealing with TV in his native tongue. Or indeed to the vast differences between a recorded studio show and live TV.

Talking of Alan Hansen, it’s a shame that he ended his punditry career on a note of such crassness when he made his assertion, in response to a question about Messi, that to be an all-time great player you had to be a World Cup winner. That’s absolute nonsense and I hope upon reflection Hansen realises just how stupid a comment it was. Does he really think that if Messi’s shot at the start of the second half had gone in instead of narrowly past, that this was the difference between good and great? In the same week that Alfredo Di Stefano died, should he be downgraded in status before his corpse is cold? Should Johan Cruyff be desperately inconsolable if he becomes aware of Hansen’s view? George Best? Stanley Matthews? Lev Yashin? Michel Platini? Marco Van Basten? Eusebio? Eusebio FFS!!!

Believe me, when Messi’s career is over (and let’s hope he’s not showing the effects of being booted all over the place every game he plays) he’ll be up there with the very best of all time, if not THE best (and I have to say that in over fifty years of watching football he is, IMHO, the best I have ever seen).

Finally, back to Germany. Undoubtedly deserved winners. To beat both Brazil and Argentina in South America inside less than a week is an achievement for the ages. But let’s not forget they eliminated a handy French team in the quarter-finals as well and thrashed (an admittedly ten-man) Portugal too. But they are not superhuman. The USA gave them a tough time. Algeria made them go 120 minutes and Ghana nearly beat them. They have their weaknesses too. Obviously Gordon Strachan watched them in action but he could do much worse than put in a call to Mixu Paatelainen who is on FIFA’s technical study group. He should remember too (and I doubt he won't) that the toughest game is always the next one.

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Re: Germany 7 Brazil 1

Post by the hibLOG » Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:25 pm

I too wouldn't say Messi was poor, but what I would say is that his presence and influence were fitful. There were long periods in the final and semi final (and even quarter final) when you could forget he was even on the pitch. Sometimes that's a ploy of great players - they hide until the opposition's defence forgets he's there and then he pounces. But I didn't get the feeling that that was what was happening. It was more that he's not the kind of player to carry a team on his own shoulders and he wasn't getting much support from an otherwise uncreative group of team-mates. It's been his curse at international level that he's not playing with a rampant Barcelona but with a cagey and fallible Argentina.

That's why I would go for Robben - he was never invisible, always wanted the ball, wanted it all over the pitch and took it on the attack every time. He's the kind of player who can galvanise his team-mates and draw them up, whereas Messi couldn't do that with Argentina, which is not to deny that he's still one of the world's greatest.
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Re: Germany 7 Brazil 1

Post by Skyline Drifter » Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:59 am

I think the call on who was the Tournament's best player is a very difficult one and I saw most of it. I never said Messi was "poor", I said calling him the best player in the tournament was "laughable", and stand by it. I know he ended up with 4 goals and an assist but he made very little contribution at the business end of the tournament (statistically he did exactly the same in the semi final and final as James Rodriguez did and at least the latter has the excuse of not having had a chance to do anything). By and large Argentina bored their way into the final and were complicit in quite probably the four dullest fixtures of the knock out stages.

I take the point about a Player of the Tournament having to contribute to the latter stages of it and accept it's probably not reasonable to give it to anyone who didn't make the last eight. I think by the time you've played five games you have probably contributed enough to be considered and I don't have a problem including Rodriguez in the short list. He played well and also scored the tournament's best goal probably. But counting against him is the fact he didn't make the last four.

I don't disagree generally with the comments on Robben either though his propensity to chuck himself to the floor at the slightest breath of wind sours him for me. I remain wholly unconvinced that the penalty that eliminated Mexico was anything other than "created" by Robben.

Brazil's fortunes once Neymar was out highlight probably just how important he was but it would be difficult to give a major award to a Brazilian the way crashed out of the tournament in their last two games and he also suffers from the same "balance problem" that seems to constantly afflict Robben's game.

So I come back to the Germans. They probably didn't have one single outstanding candidate because so much of their style was sweeping team moves but I'd have given Player of the Tournament to one of Neuer, Muller or Lahm. I come back to my previous comment about the award not needing to be given out on the night. There's no need to vote for it before the final is played. Take some time, reflect on the outcome and then award it. If Rodriguez doesn't have to be there to get the Golden Boot then the others don't have to be given on the night either.

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Re: Germany 7 Brazil 1

Post by Scottish » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:38 am

It's positively daft to vote for either player of the tournament or goalkeeper either until after the Final. Fantastic performances in the final can definitely change things. As the decisions are made by FIFA's Technical Study Group and they (presumably) attend the final, I don't see why they can't get together right after the final whistle and add points to their existing total. There's enough time before the handing over of the trophy to do a simple but of adding up, along the lines of boxing judges.

Something similar should apply domestically as well. Votes for Player of the Year are cast well before the end of the season.

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Re: Germany 7 Brazil 1

Post by Scottish » Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:15 pm

Ah well, any thought that the SFA/SPFL refusal to introduce the spray was down to UEFA rules was blown out of the water yesterday when both the French and Spanish leagues announced they would be introducing it from the start of their domestic seasons.

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Re: Germany 7 Brazil 1

Post by ScottishFA » Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:24 pm

Have they refused? I can't find any media mention of that apart from a couple of oblique mentions in the Herald which state "it is understood that" - journalistic shorthand for not having called to check.

Mind you, it is not exactly a serious issue in Scotland. And there would be nothing to stop SFA or SPFL introducing it without UEFA approval in any case.

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Re: Germany 7 Brazil 1

Post by Scottish » Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:42 pm

Well, we'll find out tomorrow when the Challenge Cup kicks off. I'd disagree it isn't a serious issue in Scotland. I don't think we have any less of a problem with stealing yards/refusing to go back as elsewhere. Players in our game are not intrinsically fairer. You're not suggesting players in France and/or Spain are more prone to cheating, surely? Would it do any harm? No. Would it do any good? Probably. Would it be SEEN to be fairer? Absolutely. Do fans approve? Going by the World Cup, almost 100%

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Re: Germany 7 Brazil 1

Post by Scottish » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:09 pm

The Football League are trying it out in the Johnstone's Paint Trophy (Challenge Cup equivalent) and the FA are considering it for the FA Cup. Even the Premiership are thinking about it. Has there been any further news from the Scottish governing bodies? I can't find anything anywhere though I imagine when/if its use becomes widespread in England, the SFA/SPFL will follow suit once fans see English teams ten yards away from free kicks and Scottish ones six or seven.

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Re: Germany 7 Brazil 1

Post by ScottishFA » Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:45 pm

Better late than never:

Vanishing spray to debut in William Hill Scottish Cup

Vanishing spray will be used for the first time in Scotland during this weekend’s William Hill Scottish Cup fixtures.

The Scottish FA will introduce the spray in this weekend’s eight fifth round ties, before it is rolled out across all of the country’s senior leagues and cup competitions.

Used by referees to help mark the required distance of 10 yards (9.15m) between the ball and opposition players from a set piece scenario, vanishing spray caught the imagination of football fans around the world when it made its FIFA World Cup debut in Brazil last year. It is now used in 13 countries around Europe.

John Beaton will become the first referee to take to the field with the spray in a domestic match in Scotland when he officiates the weekend's opening William Hill Scottish Cup fifth round fixture between Dundee and Celtic at Dens Park (kick-off 12.30pm, live on Sky Sports).

The Scottish FA will then introduce the spray to the Scottish Professional Football League, Lowland League and Highland League, including the promotion/relegation play-offs.

It will also be used in the Scottish League Cup and Scottish Challenge Cup.

The Scottish FA’s elite referees trialled the spray at their recent winter training camp in La Manga ahead of its introduction for the second half of the season.

John Fleming, the Scottish FA’s Head of Referee Operations, said: “Vanishing spray is a simple yet effective tool which will aid our referees in their management of set piece situations.

“Based on the current application and widespread use around the world, vanishing spray will undoubtedly enhance the reputation of our game.

“We are pleased to be able to roll the spray out across our senior leagues and cup competitions and look forward to seeing the benefits from this weekend in the William Hill Scottish Cup fifth round.”

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Re: Germany 7 Brazil 1

Post by Scottish » Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:00 pm

Winter training camp in La Manga, eh? Life's a bitch.

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Re: Germany 7 Brazil 1

Post by Snuff » Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:22 pm

Scottish wrote:
Winter training camp in La Manga, eh? Life's a bitch.


Come on David, surely Willie Collum deserves some sort of recompense for all the untoward abuse he takes.
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