Babcock and Wilcox - how did they win Renfrewshire Cup in t

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standman
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Babcock and Wilcox - how did they win Renfrewshire Cup in t

Post by standman » Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:05 pm

Can anyone shed some light as to how Babcock and Wilcox won the Renfrewshire Cup in 1953 ?

Did Morton and St Mirren not compete that year ?

Were they drawn together in the semis , with Babcock producing a shock in the final ?

Anyone know ?

docbillp
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Babcock and Wilcox

Post by docbillp » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:08 am

The official St Mirren site points out that St Mirren did not play in the Renfrewshire cup Final from seasons 1949-1958-59. Now, whether that means they got beat inearlier rounds or did not enter (this is probably the right answer0 is not clear. There is a history of the Renfrewshire cup - Poisened chalice by Eddie Gimlet available although I do not know the publisher. Perhaps someone can give information please. Again, as a former Babcock and Wilcox employee, I can remember sometime in the early 1960s sitting in the Love st stand along with about 30 other supporters watching Saints gub B and W in the semis of the cup. Attendance then was minimal. Cheers, Docbillp

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Babcock & Wilcox Renfrewshire Cup Win

Post by kiwiscot » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:08 am

When I lived in Dover 1987- 90 I used to go to The British Library Newspaper Division at Hendon, once a week to record the results of friendlies and local cups from the end of the 2nd World War onwards of Scottish League Clubs. I managed to get to 1956 and I think there was a massive newspaper strike then as the editions ran out for a month or so.I also managed to get from 1960 to 62. To get back to the Renfrewshire Cup Ive no results in my records for that competition for that season, thats not to say it wasnt played for, its possible the big two left it to the amatuer clubs. Whist on the subject af amatuer clubs I know B & W were members of the SFA but what of the other clubs that played in the not to distance past such as Anchor AFC, did they qualify as winners of the County Amatuer Cup.

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Re: Babcock & Wilcox Renfrewshire Cup Win

Post by Scottish » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:50 am

kiwiscot wrote: but what of the other clubs that played in the not to distance past such as Anchor AFC, did they qualify as winners of the County Amatuer Cup.
AFAIK only full members of the SFA could compete in the county cups.

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Babcock & Wilcox Renfrewshire Cup Win

Post by kiwiscot » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:59 am

Perhaps the game you were at was on the Tuesday March 28th 1961 in a semi final tie The buddies won 6 -0 at Love St against B & W just 24 hours before Rangers beat Wolves in the ECWC semi final. and two and a half weeks before the 9-3 Wembley disaster. 4 days later the Saints played Jock Stein's Dunfermline in a drawn Scottish Cup Semi at Tynecastle. They beat Morton 2-1 at Love Street on Monday 8th of May in the final reported as a first leg tie but I have known record of a 2nd leg being played. There was a game on the Wednesday 20th December 1961 in the Press as Renfrewshire Cup Final ( didnt say wether a one off or two legs ) at Cappielow which Morton won 3 -2. Bernard Stocks book The Winners gives 1960/61 RC to St Mirren and 1961/62 to Morton which ties up to my results. So I dont think 2nd legs were played.

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Babcock & Wilcox Renfrewshire Cup Win

Post by kiwiscot » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:05 pm

My text should have read , I have no known record of a 2nd leg being played. Im off to stand in the corner with a pointed hat with D on it.

docbillp
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Renfrewshire Cup semi-final

Post by docbillp » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:39 pm

Kiwiscott - truly impressive - yes, that was the game I saw. Also saw the game v Dumfermiline and had to trapse off again to Tyncastle for the replay which we lost because both our insideforwards had been gubbed on the Saturday and could not play in the replay - from memory, they were Tommy Bryceland and a big punter Saints signed from Man City - I think it was Jock Mc Tavish. Tommy Gemmell played as a replacement for Bryceland, but I forget who the other inside forward was - perhaps "Red" or "Black" Campbell? However, I'm unsure if the likes of B and W were automatically let into Renfrewshire semis, or were there other clubs that could enter? I await your reply, Cheers from Tassie, Docbillp

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Post by HibeeJibee » Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:44 pm

Babcock & Wilcox would I believe still have been a member of the SFA at this time. It's therefore possible (1) that either St Mirren or Morton did not enter, so they got into the Final direct and managed to win; (2) they beat St Mirren or Morton in a Semi, and then beat the other in the Final; or (3) byes were handed out randomly, and they got a bye straight into the Final.

A further possibility would be that both Morton and St Mirren withdrew...

It should be observed that the Renfrewshire Cup is an exceptionally oddly put together competition. (I recently communicated with the secretary of the West of Scotland FA, who confirmed much of what follows). St Mirren and Morton both enter directly. However, Morton are not even a member of the West of Scotland FA and never have been!! They are joined in the cup by the winners/finalists of the Renfrewshire Victoria Cup (which is still an SFA registered competition) - however, the entrants of this tournament are nowadays a handful of Amateur FA teams from the Inverclyde area...

The competition is very much organised 'ad hoc' by the clubs - it appears the West of Scotland FA does not even supervise the Victoria Cup part or note the teams qualifying. Whether the finalists or the winners qualify is also questionable - and seems to change as the clubs like (although you would guess Morton and St Mirren would always prefer just the winner, as that avoids both of them playing Semis). The winner then plays Morton or St Mirren (I presume this is decided by random draw) in the Semi, which tends to be played in April or May... but is sometimes held over. The Final is always held over, and by tradition is now played pre-season. Usually it is arranged before the Semi has been played, such is the formality of a mix of fringe players from SPL/SFL team soundly crushing the amateurs!!

There is a myth that, back in the 1980s, a Final was once played before the Semi - with the team playing in the Semi obviously ultra-confident of a win in their 'earlier' tie. However, I've never seen any evidence of this to be true. If it was, it would be a remarkable piece of footballing miscellany.

The Renfrewshire Cup Final is still one of best attended games of the year.

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Post by HibeeJibee » Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:17 pm

UPDATE: According to the Morton website, the Semi-Final of this season's cup (Morton v Viewfield Rovers) is next Tuesday, the 28th April, at 7pm.

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Post by Scottish » Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:38 pm

I still don't understand how the Renfrewshire Cup can be played for when the Renfrewshire FA no longer exists. The merging of the Renfrewshire, Ayrshire & Lanarkshire FA's into the West of Scotland FA was given as the reason for discontinuing the Ayrshire Cup after 130 years.

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Post by HibeeJibee » Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:46 pm

scottish wrote:I still don't understand how the Renfrewshire Cup can be played for when the Renfrewshire FA no longer exists. The merging of the Renfrewshire, Ayrshire & Lanarkshire FA's into the West of Scotland FA was given as the reason for discontinuing the Ayrshire Cup after 130 years.
It's simply a registered competition of the West of Scotland FA, for which one WoSFA member (St Mirren) enter, along with 2 invited teams: Morton and the winner of the Renfrewshire Victoria Cup (itself also a registered competition of the WoSFA, comprising entirely invited teams, being those sides in the former county of Renfrewshire in membership of the SAFA).

The Lanarkshire or Ayrshire Cups could be brought back in the same way.

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Post by Scottish » Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:30 pm

HibeeJibee wrote:The Lanarkshire or Ayrshire Cups could be brought back in the same way.
Hmmm. The general understanding appeared to be that the county cups were gone for good when the county FAs vanished yet of course the continued existence of the Renfrewshire Cup - with additional involvement it seems through the amateur ranks - disproves that.

Perhaps the then board at Kilmarnock were content to let the competition die on the grounds that the Ayrshire Cup can then remain at Rugby Park in perpetuity.

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Post by standman » Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:26 pm

Just to clarify a few things.

The only times in recent years when only the Victoria Cup finalists have met Morton or St Mirren in the final without a semi were in the early 90's when St Mirren withdrew in a huff after losing to Bellaire in 91 at Love St and in the late 90's /early 00's when Hugh Scott was in charge of Morton and withdrew us from the West of Scotland FA.

The advantages of the tournament for the Victoria Cup finalists are that the amateurs get to play at Cappielow or Love St and earn a four figure sum from the gate receipts.

And since Morton re-entered in 2003, the match has been pulling in between 3500-5000 fans since it is now played pre season, usually the Saturday before the season starts properly.

The final before the semi didn't happen in the 80's or 90's. The games then were often right at the end of the season, only the main stand would be open and it wasn't unusual for the reserves to be played.

Having said that, in 1987 at Cappielow nearly 2000 turned up to see the reserves battle it out !

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Post by standman » Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:28 pm

scottish wrote:
HibeeJibee wrote:The Lanarkshire or Ayrshire Cups could be brought back in the same way.
Hmmm. The general understanding appeared to be that the county cups were gone for good when the county FAs vanished yet of course the continued existence of the Renfrewshire Cup - with additional involvement it seems through the amateur ranks - disproves that.

Perhaps the then board at Kilmarnock were content to let the competition die on the grounds that the Ayrshire Cup can then remain at Rugby Park in perpetuity.
Somehow the Renfrewshire Cup survivedndespite the final in 1999 between St Mirren and Viewfield supposidly being the last ever time it was to be played ! I have the programme from this and that's how the game was billed on the front !

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Post by HibeeJibee » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:46 pm

scottish wrote:Hmmm. The general understanding appeared to be that the county cups were gone for good when the county FAs vanished yet of course the continued existence of the Renfrewshire Cup - with additional involvement it seems through the amateur ranks - disproves that.

Perhaps the then board at Kilmarnock were content to let the competition die on the grounds that the Ayrshire Cup can then remain at Rugby Park in perpetuity.
My understanding is that the Lanarkshire clubs (as with Glasgow clubs) all felt that the continuation of their cup was pretty pointless. When you are running a tournament simply because you've always run it - holding it over, playing boys and fringe reserves, squeezing games in on midweek - you question what the point of it really is. I've no specific knowledge of the Ayrshire situation... I'm surprised it wasn't kept, bearing in mind the derby potential. But then again wouldn't Girvan have been entitled entry?


To give a quick rundown across Scotland...

*the Aberdeenshire Cup and Shield continue to go strong, mainly since they are predominatly populated by HFL clubs. Aberdeen no longer enter.

*the Glasgow Cup is now a youth tournament, played for by the SPL/SFL clubs (Glasgow Uni don't enter, and couldn't anyway as it is U-18). They need some kind of cup to preserve their full voting status within the SFA.

*the Renfrewshire Cup as said above is St Mirren + Morton + 1 amateur - the various other West of Scotland FA clubs have no competition now, the Ayrshire and Lanarkshire cups having been abandoned in the late 1990s

*the Stirlingshire Cup had been going strong, as predominatly pre-season tournament. However it was abandoned this season due to a dispute over referees expenses. I'm told it will be up and running next season, though.

*the Southern Counties Cup continues in reasonable health, assisted by the fact that of it's 3 'non-SOSFL' members (Annan/Dalbeattie/QotS), 2 have reserve teams in the SOSFL; while QotS field a youth team mainly.

*the Forfarshire Cup is struggling. The 2007-08 cup began in September 2007, but the Final is going to be late April 2009!! The fact it's an all-in draw, involving entirely SPL/SFL clubs, doesn't help getting games played

*the Fife Cup faces similar problems. The 2007-08 final was a few weeks ago, and the lustre of Raith v Dunfermline, Raith v East Fife etc. died long ago. The presence of Burntisland is a further problem - meaning a R1 tie, and requiring the abandonment of an innovate "all in a weekend" format.

*the East of Scotland continues with a more relevant format, but is still struggling. All EOSFA clubs in the EOSFL play a Qualifying Cup; the winner of which meets Berwick in the Cup. (Livingston resigned last year). Berwick have been reluctant to play recently (the 2007-08 final was played a few weeks ago) but it appears the EOSFA are getting tougher with them. The Shield (Hearts v Hibs), the second oldest cup in Scotland, is dying... held-over for many years and not 'caught up', the 2007-08 Final has no date yet...

*the North of Scotland Cup survives, again mainly populated by HFL sides and played mainly in pre-season. The Inverness Cup, of the Inverness-shire FA (affiliate SFA member), hasn't been played for a few years now.

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