Ibrox disaster match - Now Official!

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Sat31March1928
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Ibrox disaster match - Now Official!

Post by Sat31March1928 » Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:54 pm

Just been checking my records against the RSSF and came across this.

1. Ibrox disaster match (in 51st minute, part of the west tribune
collapsed, causing 26 deaths and 587 injuries); match for the
Home Championship then declared void (then played May 3 in
England) but following correspondence between IFFHS and FIFA
in 2000 (!) acknowledged as international match.

http://www.rsssf.com/tabless/scot-intres.html

That obviously has an impact the International records as Bobby Walker would have 30 Caps and stand alone as the record cap holder vs England.

It is NOT acknowledged on the SFA website.
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HibeeJibee
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Re: Ibrox disaster match - Now Official!

Post by HibeeJibee » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:07 pm

Depends on whose decision you take as gospel, I suppose, SFA or FIFA. An opposite example would be Warren Cummings - the SFA say he has 1 Scotland cap, FIFA says he doesn't?

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Re: Ibrox disaster match - Now Official!

Post by Scottish » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:29 pm

Another problem is FIFA (founded 1904) claiming jurisdiction over a match played in 1902. IMHO this should be regarded as an official match as it certainly was at the time of the kick-off. With the exception of Hillsborough most games where tragic events have occurred have been regarded as official.

markbfc
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Re: Ibrox disaster match - Now Official!

Post by markbfc » Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:52 pm

I can't agree. It was declared unofficial soon after and of course the fixture was replayed. These games belong in the same category as, say, the three Football League matches played by clubs in the 1939-1940 season.

John Meffen

Re: Ibrox disaster match - Now Official!

Post by John Meffen » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:23 am

markbfc wrote:I can't agree. It was declared unofficial soon after and of course the fixture was replayed. These games belong in the same category as, say, the three Football League matches played by clubs in the 1939-1940 season.
But it is the remit of FIFA to decide which is and which is not an official FIFA international match, they have previously made matches official [such as the early Olympic matches] over which they had no jurisdiction, this is not a question about to whom the SFA has the right to award caps [which is ultimately meaningless [England used to only award one cap for playing in the Home Internationals, so Billy Wright was not the first player to reach 100 caps as is often quoted]] this is about what is regarded as a full international match.

Besides: from the Fifa website there is only the rematch.

03/05/1902 Birmingham England 2:2 (0:2) Scotland

FIFA's information does not stem solely from official information from the associations or confederations, but also from third parties (media, private individuals). FIFA can therefore not vouch for the accuracy of the data in every case (especially regarding friendly matches). However we make it our duty to constantly verify unofficial data.

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Re: Ibrox disaster match - Now Official!

Post by Sat31March1928 » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:40 am

Here is my list of 55 'Unofficial Games'.

The ones in bold (at least) I think should be included. Rather like wartime league games I would say that they should count towards a player's overall career whilst the 'result' shouldn't count towards the overall 'competitive' record between the teams. A good example is Gordon Smith who if you discount his Wartime record with Hibs his feats aren't nearly as impressive.

Rather than this become an academic discussion on here any change would need to be agreed by the SFA and the other FAs. Or do we just say 'dang it' go with what has been published before.

The SFA site doesn't have George Young's initial substitute appearance against Switzerland in 1946.

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/internation ... chID=58030
http://www.londonhearts.com/scotland/ga ... 60515.html

So his 50th cap would be 1 game later
http://www.londonhearts.com/scotland/pl ... young.html

List of games

The first 5 were reported at the time as being 'Scotland vs England'

1870-03-05 U England 1-1 Kennington Oval
1870-11-19 U England 0-1 Kennington Oval 650
1871-02-25 U England 1-1 Kennington Oval 500
1871-11-18 U England 1-2 Kennington Oval
1872-02-24 U England 0-1 Kennington Oval

1888-09-19 U Canada 4-0 Exhibition Grounds 6000
1891-10-03 U Canada 5-1 Ibrox Park 5000

1902-04-05 U England 1-1 Ibrox Park 68114
1902-08-09 U Ireland 3-0 Balmoral Showgrounds 3000


1916-05-13 U England 3-4 Goodison Park 22000
1919-03-22 U Ireland 2-1 Ibrox Park 50000
1919-04-19 U Ireland 0-0 Windsor Park 25000
1919-04-26 U England 2-2 Goodison Park 31809
1919-05-03 U England 3-4 Hampden 80000


1921-07-09 U Canada 1-0 Alexandra Park 6000

1929-05-28 U Norway 4-0 Ullevaal Stadium 8000

1935-05-19 U USA 5-1 Polo Grounds 22970
1935-06-08 U Eastern Canada 6-0 Toronto 5010
1935-06-09 U USA 4-1 High School Stadium 8436


Jubilee International
1935-08-21 U England 4-2 Hampden 56316

1939-05-21 U Eastern USA 1-1 Polo Grounds 25072
1939-06-18 U American Soccer League 4-2 Polo Grounds 15196

Wartime Internationals

1939-12-02 U England 1-2 St James Park 15000
1940-05-11 U England 1-1 Hampden 63004
1940-04-28 U Eire XI 3-2 Dalymount Park 21630
1940-04-24 U Army XI 4-1 Tynecastle Stadium 7600
1941-02-08 U England 3-2 St James Park 25000
1941-05-03 U England 1-3 Hampden 66375
1941-10-04 U England 0-2 Wembley Stadium 65000
1942-01-17 U England 0-3 Wembley Stadium 64000
1942-04-18 U England 5-4 Hampden 77779
1942-10-10 U England 0-0 Wembley Stadium 75000
1943-04-17 U England 0-4 Hampden 137363
1943-10-16 U England 0-8 Maine Road 60000
1944-02-19 U England 2-6 Wembley Stadium 80000
1944-04-22 U England 2-3 Hampden 132835
1944-10-14 U England 2-6 Wembley Stadium 90000
1945-02-03 U England 2-3 Villa Park 65780
1945-04-14 U England 1-6 Hampden 134479


Victory Games

1945-11-10 U Wales 2-0 Hampden 92323
1946-02-02 U Northern Ireland 3-2 Windsor Park 53000
1946-04-13 U England 1-0 Hampden 139642
1946-08-24 U England 2-2 Maine Road 70000


1949-05-30 U American Soccer League 4-1 Triborough Stadium
1949-08-19 U USA 4-0 Triborough Stadium 17000

1959-05-24 U Jutland 3-3 Aarhus 6000

1967 World Tour IIRC some countries have these games as 'Official'

1967-05-16 U Israel 2-1 Ramat Gan 27000
1967-05-25 U Hong Kong 4-1 Hong Kong Stadium 7000
1967-05-28 U Australia 1-0 Sydney Showground 34972
1967-05-31 U Australia 2-1 Norwood Oval 20000
1967-08-03 U Australia 2-0 Olympic Park 22138
1967-08-05 U New Zealand U-23 7-2 Lower Hutt Recreation Ground 5000
1967-08-08 U Auckland Provincial XI 4-0 Newmarket Park 15000
1967-08-10 U Vancouver All-Stars 4-1 Empire Stadium
1967-08-13 U Canadian Olympic XI 7-2 Alexander Park 3000
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Re: Ibrox disaster match - Now Official!

Post by Scottish » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:42 am

Sat31March1928 wrote:
The ones in bold (at least) I think should be included.
I'd agree with the exception of the match v the Army. I think to qualify for international status you have to have two teams. I wouldn't want to go down the South American route of counting matches v club sides as full international and while the Army clearly weren't a club side nor were they an international team. The victory internationals of 1946 are the most obvious anomalies now that we know the Belgian and Swiss games were official.

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Re: Ibrox disaster match - Now Official!

Post by Sat31March1928 » Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:04 pm

scottish wrote:
Sat31March1928 wrote:
The ones in bold (at least) I think should be included.
I'd agree with the exception of the match v the Army. I think to qualify for international status you have to have two teams. I wouldn't want to go down the South American route of counting matches v club sides as full international and while the Army clearly weren't a club side nor were they an international team. The victory internationals of 1946 are the most obvious anomalies now that we know the Belgian and Swiss games were official.
I meant to exclude the Army XI game. Obviously there were the games vs various club sides in the 1950s that I've excluded as well. Those games are certainly of interest particularly if a player selected never got a full cap.
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markbfc
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Re: Ibrox disaster match - Now Official!

Post by markbfc » Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:24 pm

John Meffen wrote:
markbfc wrote:I can't agree. It was declared unofficial soon after and of course the fixture was replayed. These games belong in the same category as, say, the three Football League matches played by clubs in the 1939-1940 season.
But it is the remit of FIFA to decide which is and which is not an official FIFA international match, they have previously made matches official [such as the early Olympic matches] over which they had no jurisdiction, this is not a question about to whom the SFA has the right to award caps [which is ultimately meaningless [England used to only award one cap for playing in the Home Internationals, so Billy Wright was not the first player to reach 100 caps as is often quoted]] this is about what is regarded as a full international match.

Besides: from the Fifa website there is only the rematch.

03/05/1902 Birmingham England 2:2 (0:2) Scotland

FIFA's information does not stem solely from official information from the associations or confederations, but also from third parties (media, private individuals). FIFA can therefore not vouch for the accuracy of the data in every case (especially regarding friendly matches). However we make it our duty to constantly verify unofficial data.
Yes, I never use caps as a term to denote international appearances - some of the players that went on the FA tours in the late 1930s were rewarded with an "international cap" so the subject matter we are discussing here is different. As mentioned before, the 1902 game should be treated as an unofficial international, recognising it repeats the mistake of the match referee letting the two teams play on in the first place.

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Re: Ibrox disaster match - Now Official!

Post by HibeeJibee » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:28 am

Wee query of mine.

Am I right in saying that the reason the internationals of 1902 (the Ibrox disaster game and the game v Ireland), of 1935 (the Jubilee match v England) and of August 1946 (Burnden Park disaster fund) aren't counted is since SFA didn't issue caps for them at the time?

However, am I also right in saying that SFA didn't actually issue caps for anything (including even World Cup) until several decades after WWII... it was only the BHC which garnered caps?

If so, is there a reason for retrospectively counting games v non-British Isles countries, but not these?

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Re: Ibrox disaster match - Now Official!

Post by Scottish » Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:02 am

HibeeJibee wrote:Wee query of mine.

Am I right in saying that the reason the internationals of 1902 (the Ibrox disaster game and the game v Ireland), of 1935 (the Jubilee match v England) and of August 1946 (Burnden Park disaster fund) aren't counted is since SFA didn't issue caps for them at the time?

However, am I also right in saying that SFA didn't actually issue caps for anything (including even World Cup) until several decades after WWII... it was only the BHC which garnered caps?

If so, is there a reason for retrospectively counting games v non-British Isles countries, but not these?
The reason for the 1902 game not counting is that it was actually played later at Birmingham. The other two were 'extra' games not part of the regular series so weren't considered 'proper' internationals.

I don't think there's been any retrospective counting. Regardless of whether caps were issued or not, games against European opponents were counted as official internationals.

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